[RHA] Reputation Adjusted

[Oggdo Bogdo]

I am not involved in the roleplay around the Freeport involved, nor Zoners broadly, nor am I involved with the destroyed player base, or indeed the [RHA]. To my knowledge, none of the GMs involved in the decision are, either. We recuse ourselves and abstain from discussion when we are involved in the factions at play, where practical, to reduce the risk of conflicts of interest.

Respectfully, this is also precisely why the GMs should not get involved; you do not have the inside knowledge of the FP1 administrator of FP1 politics/environment, or indeed Zoners as a whole. A consequence like this could have easily backfired and inspired [RHA] to start attacking Zoners, not that such a thing is in the works because [RHA] is most likely uninterested in this.

The situation could have easily backfired on the owner of the PoB as well. Why did he not pay the fee? His PoB isn't a random useless storage depot, but an ore depot, which could easily make so much more than 150m a month. His refusal to pay brought all that firepower to FP1. Not that I wish any further consequences on the owner after losing his PoB, I am just illustrating another way in which this situation could have played out.

Mixing roleplay with server administration is when GMs might approve their own SRP, or use access privileges to advantage themselves somehow, like repsheet modification on their characters - abuse of power stuff. I do not believe that this obligation has been violated.

The point is that you still used your administrative powers to evolve an RP situation, even if you did not directly benefit from it yourself. While I do not wish to accuse you of abuse of power, I would like to suggest it is still possible to do so even if you did not benefit from it. I would like to further suggest that this obligation was designed to also protect GMs from these kinds of situations where players are upset at GMs for dictating how an RP situation continues.

That analysis and judgement at the intersection of the server's roleplay and server administration is how SRPs, player requests, faction requests and most things are assessed.

I think the reason why people are upset is because SRPs, player requests, faction requests are the means for players to conduct roleplay. The administration team assessing these things is not interfering with server roleplay, but rather, protecting the player's means to roleplay.

But here, rather than protecting a player's rights to roleplay, you have enforced your ideas on how this roleplay should continue, without at least giving the Zoner 1ic a heads-up before enacting this. In so doing, you have interrupted the chain of roleplay consequences, and jumped straight to the final result, in addition to undermining the official faction's authority on FR5. Of course this is not a full FR5 and the consequences are pretty mild, but the point is that any consequence at all is up to the official faction to decide.

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[Stoner_Steve]

Attacking a Zoner Base (PoB or other) wilst docking to a Zoner Freeport to replenish = Exploit

I'm inline here too, the GM's should have deleted the offending ships involved for performing this exploit and warned [RHA] for their behavior, no rep adjusting involved. just good old fashioned delete button.

e: Per this santion RHA needs to be hostile to the Zoners anyways to perform PoB attacks.

ID lines regarding engaging ships apply to PoBs in spirit. Therefore, the Zoners needed to be hostile to you, which they were not, according to your forum rep sheet. You were also not assisting a friendly or allied faction, as you were the initiator of the siege declaration.

[Kalhmera]

Attacking a Zoner Base (PoB or other) wilst docking to a Zoner Freeport to replenish = Exploit

I'm inline here too, the GM's should have deleted the offending ships involved for performing this exploit and warned [RHA] for their behavior, no rep adjusting involved. just good old fashioned delete button.

e: Per this santion RHA needs to be hostile to the Zoners anyways to perform PoB attacks.

ID lines regarding engaging ships apply to PoBs in spirit. Therefore, the Zoners needed to be hostile to you, which they were not, according to your forum rep sheet. You were also not assisting a friendly or allied faction, as you were the initiator of the siege declaration.

Pilot carrying this unlawful ID is member of the Red Hessian Army who:


- Can attack any ships within their Zone of Influence, except transports.

- Can demand cargo and credits from any ship within their Zone of Influence, and attack them if they do not comply.


Argument Void.

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[Champ]

There is no need for back and forth between members here.

@Kalhmera, sorry does not and will not protect you from ramifications.

@"Captain_Nemo", we are not treating this as a cheating incident.

@Hokan, indeed this is an extraordinary step. Where nothing else is done, for the sake of the server environment, to maintain structure and sense, this step was taken, as previously explained. GMs are an active role, not a passive one; it is not only by player request that action may or will be taken. I would once again caution against making slippery slope arguments; this isn't and isn't likely to be a frequent occurrence, and indeed the measure is temporised with that in mind. As for what territory GMs are meant to be in, I would contend that this is not out of bounds. Popping in on a GM ship and enforcing the NFZ would be (very obviously and severely) out of bounds. That would also be an example of mixing roleplay and administration. This is a step that was taken with preserving the integrity and logic of the server roleplay environment, as has been explained several times. I appreciate that it is your perspective that this was a step too far, and I respectfully disagree with where that line is.

@"Minx", if we had been directly involved in the roleplay, it would have been inappropriate for the involved to take any such action. [RHA] can already pirate and attack Zoners; being red on the scanners (temporarily) has little to do with that. As has been explained, faction diplomatic relationships are not necessarily affected by this. It is absolutely possible to abuse power without it being beneficial. Again though, I would disagree that has happened; this is a temporary measure to maintain some in-universe contiguity, not pouring money into any particular factions or some such. Devs do have control over storylines, at large. If it were all player driven I'd be concerned about how much of Sirius would be Liberty. I'm going to reject your suggestion of the intent and design of the rules; it's not often I pull the seniority card, but I will pull it here. We are definitely not just protecting players' roleplay and facilitating it all. Many times over the years have players' roleplay been restricted, redirected or rejected to preserve the larger in-game world. This is hardly the final step in the roleplay chain; as I have written many times the input of the Zoner factions roleplay around this situation would be very helpful and very welcome. It is, again, temporary. Indeed, had the [RHA] shot a Zoner NPC, everything going red would be the first step. This is not undermining an FR5; no Zoner FR5 has been submitted. Roleplay consequences are primarily up to the faction to decide, but the buck does stop with us. Official factions and their behaviour have always been and continue to be under scrutiny; with great power, great responsibility, and so on.


Edit: I'm trying very hard to keep this thread from being locked because I want to make sure players can voice their opinions about this action in the right place, and in the right way, and that they at the least feel heard.

Do not post here with generic complaints about POB balance or the [RHA] having attacked a base, or in response to any such posts. My patience is exhausted.

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[Aazalot]

I was going to write a massive speal but in all honesty I have no idea what to say at this stage.
The reason i as the OSI 1IC and the OSI ship at the initial Siege didn't do anything yet is because it's not something that can just be charged into. Sure I could have submitted a Fr5 immediately but there is a lot to consider when doing so. Zoner diplomacy can be a vast and intricate web that effects a lot of groups all with their own decisions, relationships and goals which have to be taken into consideration. It has been seen in the past and to this day that just because you have bad relations with one Zoner group doesn't mean you have bad relations to all Zoner groups. But because we share a singular IFF and Rep to FR5 a faction can have massive repercussions for every one else (unless we have the technology where it doesn't) which can affect established Rp and so on.
SO there's that

Also in regard to not coming to the bases defense, Freeport 1 is considered house space, so bringing in any capitols is an issue for anyone not wanting to annoy the neighbors. OSI at most can use gunboats so not a lot we can do against a cap ship fleet even if we had the players to mount any sort of defense. Velvet operates in the Omicrons
And on a personal note, I've got to the point where it feels pointless to do anything anyways. We don't have the player base to have a full on defense, there so many people who are commenting about Zoners having laws or that it's pointless to have NFZ (though a good chance these are people who will use them when convenient ) not to mention I've been told that OFL's have no control or say over NPC bases anyways so why SHOULD I bother to try to enforce stuff around a base that isn't considered under our control?
So as you can imagine there's a lot of conflict and ponder one has to do before an FR5 is even considered.

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[McNeo]

This whole situation kinda reminds me of the time when [RM] and BAF| decided to briefly go to war with each other over Omega 3, while Rheinland was at war with Liberty and Bretonia was at war with Gallia.

RM lost Westfalen temporarily to LN, and something else happened to BAF in Leeds. And nobody from either [RM] or BAF| wanted that. They were warned if they continued with their hostilities, both would lose more territory to the major powers they were already at war with, so they stopped instantly.

Brinkmanship has got to have consequences beyond what players decide for themselves, otherwise you just get laughable situations like 20 battleships outside a freeport and the administrator shrugging his shoulders, when in reality he'd probably be crucified by the residents of the station for allowing such a situation to materialise in the first place. But players dont have to answer to an NPC electorate, so there needs to be some other way of levying consequences.

That said, I actually agree with sajuk111 who said the people who should be held responsible for this are the Zoners, not RHA. reference: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2176014 . Regardless of the status of the base, such a ridiculous breach of the NFZ should have political consequences for Zoner leaders. The people of the station decide that since the Zoners wont enforce their NFZ and keep them safe anyway, maybe they boot him out and the Freeport turns into a Freelancer IFF base, for example.

[Shiki]

@Champ
You see, no one ever will admit that something was done with half malicious or biased intent. Of course, it's all for making sense and securing the RP world for the better and yada yada and blah-blah. That's an excuse for any authoritarian crap, it's more than clear that both sides who represent said NPC factions are unhappy and yet you keep insisting and pressing the point for no other reason but to secure authority for doing anything you want. "It's no matter how people actually feel or think about it, we know better what is good for you, now open your mouth a take a big pile of our crap".

We had that with greens, who basically lost the track and did whatever they want at some point in time. Then we had it with Durandal, now you seem to be reaching the same in a very short term.

You attempting on looking the white knight or take the moral high ground are kind of laughable and partly annoying.

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[NOVA-5]

Pobs shouldn't even be built in a NFZ.
The NFZ wasn't kept by the Zoners there, you can't tell the Hessians
to stick their demands up their arse and then build WP's in a NFZ,
it defeats the purpose of being neutral & breaks their own said law.

Adjustments by proxy here sounds a little self righteous & one sided,
where's the thread that upholds the Hessians rights in all this?

[HrabCOrp]

Pobs shouldn't even be built in a NFZ.

Yes, they shouldn't, but they can be (7a).

7. No base or other installation may be built within 15k of any ZFN claimed space without expressed approval from members of the Freeport Network.

A) Pre-approved installations are the exception to this rule

I doubt that NoMe's POB was "pre-approved", but it was in place for quite a long time. Maybe it has something to do with insufficient NFZ regulation in the area. The fact is: RHA breached NFZ with a tremendous fleet, Zoners did not react, GM reacted to keep things flow logically.

I see everyone's point in that, but I'd like things to make sense, that's why I did a little RP to ban them from my Neph. RHA's violation ~kinda~ makes sense inRP (but harming relations with Zoners a lot just to destroy a mining station? Okay, it's their decision). What doesn't make sense for me is zero response from Zoners.

I understand, that it is difficult to do something like FR5, but at least reach RHA with any kind of complaint, ask for an explanation, why they did so without the permission of ZFN, etc. NFZs are in your jurisdiction.

It is a bit silly for such an incident (hey, huge fleet is near our station, let's be happy!) to just be a norm. That's why I support GM's decision this time because it at least tries to make sense of this situation. I still hope to see the Forumlancer solution.

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[Binski]

Well some things to take from this...

Should factions be obligated to FR5? (would it be metagaming if nothing is done?)

Should Zoner POB's be allowed to be built within NFZ's? If so, and they get sieged, should consequences be enforced, by obligation on OF's, or filled in by GM?

The situation is, if RHA gets barred from Freeports, they become a lot more limited. They could then retaliate against any and all Zoners inside their ZOI with aggressive actions. But, thats only if they wouldnt just all quit? Go ahead, process it and see what happens.

If the base was legal and not against server rules, they exposed themselves quite a bit by waltzing into the NFZ and owning the place. Too bad Freeports are indestructable eh? But Zoners could now make them pay big, they could sink them right quick. As far as I remember, they could be FR5'd just for firing at players in the NFZ.

If the base was against server rules though, then RHA are off the hook, but I'd say probably not the next time.

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