Let's compare the Corsair and Outcast VHFs again.

[atlantis2112]

Have you tried them? Not just comparing their stats? Have you seen decent people flying them? No? I thought so.

You put words in other people's mouths? Does that support your poorly formulated arguments? Yes? Yes.


As much as I hate to say it, the Sabre is a great ship in my opinion, but I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a nerf. Why? Because unused ships like Virages and such might be brought into a better light.

[... kur nubėgo?]

You put words in other people's mouths? Does that support your poorly formulated arguments? Yes? Yes.

Becouse viewpoint doesn't change the fact itself.

Thus some people just refuse to believe fact. But nor I feel any duty to waist my time trying to point that too. Ignorantic people won't even concider it. Spent more time in connie. Hang out more around pvp and then you'll be able to see more clearly.

---

Omega Pirates Guild

History of OPG | Antonio "Vilkas" Devivar

[SeaFalcon]

You forgot gun speeds.

Really no wonder that krakens use more energy since they are quite a lot faster. Which means more possible hits.

Also shape favours both ships as mentioned above.

Titan does have vulnerable wings though as Espi can confirm.

You don't wanna know how much razors I have put through the sabres wing holes. And I got prove;)

In my opinion the sabre is still a bit more superior then the Titan.

[... kur nubėgo?]

In my opinion the sabre is still a bit more superior then the Titan.

Once you have a shire to take out alone.. you'll favor a Titan : P

---

Omega Pirates Guild

History of OPG | Antonio "Vilkas" Devivar

[r3vange]

[color=#FFFFFF]As far as I am concerned those two ships now are greatly if not perfectly balanced. I recon that it should be left as it is. Right now the situation Sabre vs. Titan. The Titan has the advantage of better hull strength and it is very hard to hit as well, (me and my friends even say a joke about it that the only thing harder to hit than a Titan is a Titan with no wings). The Sabre on the other hand is generally considered the nimblest of the two but hardly a difficult target to hit. And even though the Sabre has always been my fighter of choice I have fought both other Sabres and Titan and believe me that the Sabre is much easier to hit. I've done the same in the Titan as well and the results were the same. Another think that Ceoran pointed out is that the Sabre deals more DPS but over a shorter period of time, while the Titan can keep the pounding on for a bigger time span. When you combine being an "easy" target with the fact that 5 second burst usually leaves you without any energy I think that the Sabre is almost on the equal footing as the Titan.

---

[Reacher]

You forgot gun speeds.

Really no wonder that krakens use more energy since they are quite a lot faster. Which means more possible hits.

Also shape favours both ships as mentioned above.

Titan does have vulnerable wings though as Espi can confirm.

You don't wanna know how much razors I have put through the sabres wing holes. And I got prove;)

In my opinion the sabre is still a bit more superior then the Titan.

Ye

Also interactions between OC and Corsairs are not that common and generally are no longer desired on the Corsair side.

So how about comparing the Sabre to the Nyx? I'm sure the CR have much to say on that.

Or the Titan to the Odin.

Oh and before Blobo comes I'll just say it. Loki FTW!

[Chenzo-]

Guys, the people who believe one thing will stick to it and the ones who believe the other will stick aswel. Ipersonally think the two are in Perfect balance, they both have their advantages and alike, Advantages, however they balance eachother out with just that, One's power is another's weakness, it just goes down to the pilot learning how to work that out..


As I said, noone will ever change their minds.. Nerf it gunners will allways want to nerf something.. It's like a pathetic mind game.. They are so pathetic in their real lives that have to crush other peoples fun in a online community..... It makes them feel big... Curse your bullies in school.. Guess i shouldn't have given ya'll such a hard time... 40 and still never felt the warmth of a women?

Yeah... Shame..


As to the argumen of the ships need to be balanced around other smaller factions they apose, you will find the ships all work out the same with similar mechanics as it goes...

Of course the sabre and titan are the best? And why not? they are the two largest factions around in the pirate world.. why shouldn't they have slightly better things.. it flows nicly with the RP...

---

[Ceoran]

At first: Glad to see that most people kept it civil. Thanks for that.

Also, I'm somewhat of a fighter-whore. I've tried out quite a lot of them already. Those freely availabe VHFs I haven't flown so far would be the Arbeiter, the Bastet, the Blossom, the Collector, The Manta, the Nephtys, the Touketsu & the Werewolf.
Why I didn't compare other ship classes? Switchy and Gladi are hard to compare due to being completely different and I haven't flown many LFs. I suck at bombers and any caps but light cruisers.

I won't say it's perfectly balanced, but it's a lot closer than most people give credit.

I've never said they are. It has been stated multiple times that perfect balance would mean everyone flying the same ship and I'd agree with that.

The only thing I don't get, is why are you comparing it with the Titan only... sure that's the archenemy's main ship, but there's many other fighters that a Sabre pilot puts his skills and hull against.

Because I wanted to compare the Sabre as an outcast ship, since the Krakens are subject to a nerf according to several rumours too. And not the ship of every merc on the server. Also, it makes most sense to compare it to a ship of the same ship class. Why not the Nyx? Because if I remember correctly the Nyx will already get an update. Why not the Guardian? because rendering the Krakens useless will only make the average OC indy in Liberty use codes instead. Those OC who are hated most play the faction for the vast ZoI. Why not the Eagle? The only enemy of the OC that I can think of and is using it are the GMG. And I never heard them complain about it so far.

to prove my points:
Totaly doesn't matter in 1 on 1 in fighter fight. Unless you are a razor spammer. But a guy who can aim razor will be ok with sabre powerplant.

Read again please:

Now when is the second part important? Obviously not in a duel most people use as a reference to determine the strength of a ship. No, the second part becomes important in a group fight. Sabre pilots chasing a target which is not jousting run out of energy pretty fast while Titan pilots can just keep firing. Hence, the Titan pilots are in a group fight able to deal more damage.

You've supported it yourself:

What I'm saying it's not like .. ohh look. Titan is crap compared to Sabre. Or corsair stuff to outcast. But they are better in diffrent porpuses. Then you want to be more universal versus transports and capital ships - sair stuff are better. Then it's more fighter orantied - outcast stuff is more useful.

Connie is a duellist-place. Or for small-scale battles, nothing like a fight with 10+ participants per side. And that's where I say the advantage of the titan kicks in.

Titan does have vulnerable wings though as Espi can confirm.

Yes, I'm aware of the wing-thingy. But I've been fighting wing-less Titans before. It turns them into 4 class10 slots and a fighter torpedo slot combined with the biggest powerplant in the game, all put into the size of a Starflier. I fear the wingless more than those who have 2 more guns.

---

My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-

Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.

[Elven]

Both ships are perfectly fine, as for me.

Comparing OC Sabre & Corsair Titan gets boring as well, since official factions of both sides meet rarely. [and indies meet on Alpha / Gamma raids]

[blubba]

Whilst I won't question your maths, I must question their application.

'€¢For once, the Sabre is capable of dealing 15.568 DPS for a time of less than 5 seconds.
'€¢On the other hand, the Titan is capable of dealing 12.720 DPS over a duration of more than 10 seconds.
'€¢So the Sabre deals about 22% more DPS while the Titan can fire twice as long.
The first part of the conclusions above is what most people look at. And then they say the Sabre would be overpowered. Almost no one cares about the second part though.
Now when is the second part important? Obviously not in a duel most people use as a reference to determine the strength of a ship. No, the second part becomes important in a group fight. Sabre pilots chasing a target which is not jousting run out of energy pretty fast while Titan pilots can just keep firing. Hence, the Titan pilots are in a group fight able to deal more damage.

Assuming all shots would hit, the Titan would have dealt 127.200 Hull damage after 10 seconds. In the same time, a Sabre would have only dealt about 100k Hull Damage.

My question refers to the amount of time the guns can fire at each other. Specifically the time it takes for one pass, one turn and to commence firing again.
If you take these into account, the balance is far from numbers on a screen.
The Titans powerplant would give a razor user an advantage but would that be enough?
Possibly is the only answer I can give. If he's accurate, then yes. If he's not, it may prove to be a disadvantage.
The Sabre can turn faster and so begin it's attack earlier. He therefore gets more time firing on the target so again, the figures are misleading.
The amount of time they spend firing is based purely on how long the enemy is infront of you. With this in mind, again, the Sabre is more agile and so the Titan will spend more time infront of the Sabre than the Sabre will infront of the Titan.
Based on both ships firing their weapons constantly, the Titan can fire a considerably longer time. Sadly, that just doesn't happen in combat. The ships re-charge between passes.
The Sabre only has to be able to do enough damage to kill the Titan, rather than the total amount of damage in X time (or vice versa).
Now, whilst I appreciate you've spotted that and refer to group combat, I'd point out that being a more nimble ship, the Sabre is more than adequately equipped to evade for the very short time it would take to re-charge sufficently to fire again. Shield running for example is easier in an agile ship as opposed to a less agile one. Especially when the less agile ship has guns with slower projectile speeds.

Talking of which...
The Krakens weapon speed is important. Why?
It enables the targeter to be able to hit his target with less deflection, the faster the weapon.
Less deflection means less time for the target to change direction from when the projectile is fired to when it hits him. Practice has nothing to do with this.
This fact becomes all the more relevant knowing that the Sabre is more agile than the Titan. Not only can it not evade as well as the Sabre but it's harder for the Salamanca equipped Titan to hit the Sabre because of the Titans slow projectile speed weapons.

Now lets take this one step further. Most Titan's don't have six Salamancas. They possibly have four and two Tizonas.
Bearing that in mind, what would it do to mathematics then?
It might tear up the Sabres shield but just dent the hull. I don't know because I haven't worked it out by the way.
On top of all this, less agile ships are more vulnerable to solid state weapons like missiles, mines and torpedos. Non of which would feature in the maths presented.

All these factors must be considered when balancing ships and available weaponry.
In my humble opinion, I do believe the balance swings more to one side than the other but it is not a huge lean and I have my pride. I like piloting the underdog. That way when all is said and done, I know it was me that made the difference and not the ship.
This is in no way condemnation of any one side, be it Titan or Outcast, Sala or Kraken. I am just presenting it as a reflection of the first post.

In conclusion then, while I'm sure the numbers are right, I just don't think enough time was given to the application of them and under what circumstances those occasions used would occur.

---