So, how do you expect Zoners to keep up neutrality? (I think I know the answer, but I await your verbose prose.)
That's none of my concern actually. I do not play zoner rp, neither thinking to go there, becouse I know I wouldn't be able to handle it. Wait?.. maybe by roleplaying with my character and trying to find a compromise? Simply making politics? It's up to your role-play how to lead it. But if you make a mistake, don't hide under canon.
Some zoners really make up for the task, some don't.
a little discrepance between players and lore - yet again....
food from fp9 to crete. - yes, it happens... each day... thousands of tons of food go from zoners to the corsairs. - you don t see them? - well.... each day... millions of tons of consumer goods are moved all across the inner sphere. - you don t see them?
maybe you gotto dive deeper into the imagination of roleplay there. - the lore says that it happens. - so it happens. we do NOT count playerships actually trading - those are only specific but not representative for the NPCs factions actions. ( remember when i wrote that the military we see in the houses is by far not what the military represents by lore... )
so when we assume that for example .... bretonia as a whole house has a military larger than what players represent. ( and i am sure we agree with that ) - how comes that we cannot agree that zoner food shipments to crete is the same?
we claim that "we see no zoner players taking food to crete - and so we say... it does not happen" - yet - at the same time we say "the players in a house military are only a small fraction of what the house actually deploys"
game mechanics prevent us from adding too many NPCs....
but it would be easy to place zoner NPCs doing regular flights to crete with food - would that constitute as enough reason to "be good with corsairs"?
the above is but a small example of what you need to base your opinion on - either playerbased and player represented ( but then - try to apply it to everything ) - or lore based ( but then - again.... apply it to everything )
but when you pick lore based here - and playerbased there.... it gets the uneasy feeling of being unfair.
or in short - zoners are neutral, cause they get thousands of tons of food to crete each year - and without zoners the corsairs die to starvation... the fact that you don t see them is game mechanics and your point of view.
if we thought that players are all there is .... zoners would move into kusari and take over the empire, cause the KNF is but a fraction of the size of zoner playerships.... won t happen... - why? - cause we assume that the KNF is still a little larger and more powerful... even if we do not see them.
the population of each faction goes in the tens of thousands at least - sometimes millions or billions of people. - players and their ships are but a very small fraction of that and hardly represent, nor shape the faction at all - even if many a players take up "leading" roles. sometimes - in special occasions or epical events - players can change the face of a faction, but it takes about as long as taking a container freighter at high sea from max speed to a full stop.
if the game COULD do it - it would populate the space with millions of small ships ( ever looked at the traffic on city screens? - they re buzzing around like cars - now imagine the same travel of NPCs in space )
@Doc: You see this faction as something attempting to nerf the Zoners. If this syndicate was made- they wouldn't actually really get anywhere (nerf the Zoners in anyway, hindering their ships and so forth). Think of it like the Hessians. If they never existed and where suddenly formed right now- today even. Do you think that people will be up in arms yelling NO! Down with the Hessians! We can't have some faction take over Rhienland for ever and start a revolution!
You see, its the same as what your saying for this group. Its not like a few bombers are going to impose huge changes on the Zoners. They are just trying to stop their continual expansions (but will not succeed). You see, its all in RP.
@Jinx: I understand your views on not altering the lore ect. The Zoners are one of the more complex factions that are hard to change, and should not be for the right reasons. As opposed to say...the Unioners. But understand this- a band of political idealists fighting to 'stop the Zoners' (that will not stop them because that would be out of their RP isn't going to change the Zoners lore. I also agree with most of Sprolf's points.
In short- The anti-Zoner syndicate is not based on lore, it is based on players. Dont start amagining that when we (hypothetical) are offline that the Zoners are still being attacked by syndicate people. Being based not on an NPC faction- it is hard to incorporate it into the lore without changing in game workings. Besides- being based on players, it allows for more role play opportunitys which ideally lead to more fun. If we were all here for the lore, why would we even bother logging on our characters.
So there has to be a balance. As far as im concerned, the anti Zoner sydicate wont tip the balance.
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Quote:@Doc: You see this faction as something attempting to nerf the Zoners. If this syndicate was made- they wouldn't actually really get anywhere (nerf the Zoners in anyway, hindering their ships and so forth).
We already have enough folks trying to do that. QCP, GRN and even the Mollies to a degree and then there are others who try to strongarm them into doing things for them against there better judgement thus creating tensions elsewhere. Corsairs do that and the reaction is groups who hate them taking exception.
Quote:They are just trying to stop their continual expansions (but will not succeed).
Two things. Zoners are explorers. How do you think they have expanded so much? Going where others won't go but once there, others tend to follow. In that respect, they are pioneers.
And the cap ships Zoners have? They don't really WANT them but because people keep meddling in their lives and affairs, they NEED them. Leave them alone and you may not see them expanding as much.
I also want you to think of something. There are some Zoners that if you try to "hinder" their ships, you may be met with a mortar round or worse. There are some who are Zoners because they don't fit in elsewhere and have found acceptance amongst them.
On the whole, Zoners have been nerfed enough. We don't need more of it.
In all honesty, you can say what you want, but if a specific group wants to create an alliance/opposition against a certain faction (this case being the Zoners), you can't really go around and tell them they aren't allowed.
If I wanted I could create a group of Freelancer ID'ed/Pirate ID'ed fellas against the Zoners or any faction I wanted, just need some creativity and a solid Role-Play background and it's all set to go.
Yup, Zeltak is right there.
Zoners aren't gods who can't be touched, if someone wants to create an anti-zoner group, all he needs is a good background story, and some people that might join up ( I'm sure we could find people who would love to join D: )
You feed Crete, you tick off the 'casts... you bring refugees to Malta, you make the 'Sairs angry.
Bounty Hunters using Freeports as bases to attack the Order enmasse.
And around all of this mess, you have traders trudging on a great big wheel of trade.
It is this constant push and pull, don't do this that's helping the enemy... but how do we survive....
Neutral states survive by being small, and slipping under the radar. Grow too big and you get noticed, and targeted.
I would point out that America was "Neutral" in the run up to Pearl Harbour. (but let's not forget they were supplying the Allies with war materials and denying Japan fuel).
It is not for Zoners to define how they are seen by others. But it is also not for others to define how Zoners see themselves.
Being the leader of the original Anti-Zoner faction, I can assure you there is plenty of Propaganda already out there, some of it quite good.
Do I think that another faction dedicated to the destruction of Zoner militaries is needed? Not at all. I agree with an earlier statement, make it against all house militaries, any military faction...
Pacification through force... has a nice ring to it.
As for Zoner Neutrality, we don't need "Another" debate on this, we are all entitled to interpret that 'neutrality' as we see fit. Role play is exactly that.
about a splintergroup disliking zoners - with sufficient background thats ok. -so far - no one has applied sufficient background further than a blanket bounty or unmet unreasonable demands though.
however - there are hardcoded characteristics.
zoners are not gods that cannot be touched indeed.
why do we believe that nomads for example cannot befriend humans cause -- with sufficient background? why do you believe that the dragons cannot execute a coup and take over kusari?
where is the limits of "sufficient background"? - does the definition only serve my purpose - or is my judgement clouded, cause i have a personal dislike for one group or another. - thats why i said - such global decisions and alterations can only be made by a group with a global understanding of factions.
igiss or the admin team
if players meddle with such mechanics - decisions are based on subjectivity - and end up in fighting like like when that totally stupid blanket bounty on zoners was posted - and veteran factions jumped to the occasion - and at that time ... there was NOT enough background lore given other than "some zoner killed a relative of mine, now i blanket bounty all zoners, even battleships" ( totally out of focus )
many a players joined in at that time, QCP, smokeones, many others - and no one really cared much for the sufficient background at that time. - so i am highly suspicious about the justification of providing sufficient background...
players are too much themselves than the role they ought to play. - almost no player truely is objective.
let me change my wording a little, Let Zoners be Zoners.
They are Zoners. The word defines them better than "Neutral" or "Power trader" or "Peace Keeper" or a hundreds of other names that get hurled around.
People should stop trying to apply labels to something that is a unique brand of Roleplay. Being a Zoner is so much more than being Neutral, just like being in QCP is so much more than hunting Whales.
So in keeping the thread on track,
be more than just simply "I hate Zoners" be something creative and positive.
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