The non-agressive tactic we employ with the ToG| also shows great success. We don't threaten or harm traders, we ask for voluntary donations, and almost all of them give some credits and roleplay. We made 23.5 million credits last night without firing a single shot. Ever trader we encountered stopped and roleplayed and gave us a donation.
I'm still skeptical whether or not tougher transports will result in more roleplay for more agressive parties such as the Liberty Rogues and Corsairs.
- the OP is unreadable, cause its white on white - ( yes, i know i can change my UI or mark the text ) - but really, is there a reason for the fancy colourchange when "black" works best for everyone?
- cruisers, battleships are forced to fly with escorts. they are considered "capital warships" - gunboats - while classified warships are not included in that group.
- large transports like trains or 4k+ transports are also "capital ships" - not capital warshpis, but captial still. - same class, same size, same dilemma - the need for escorts.
- small craft are not yet required escorts, cause the game favours them - its a fighter game after all.
- buffing up one class in a balance-chain affects the whole chain. even now - ships like the pirate transport and the raba or to some extend the BW transport can be used like a mini gunboat that can go 1 on 1 with a fair number of gunboat classes - and thats a civilian vessel vs. a purely military vessel that is build around fighting, while the transports are build around cargospace.
or how can one explain the efficiency of a pirate transports? - ten times the cargospace of a regular gunboat, insignificantly larger if anyway, a dps that almost matches the dps of gunboats and a similar agility. ( although it equips a lesser shield ) - but makes up for it by having more armour and bats/bots.
- buffed up transports can become public warships when being buffed up too much - and "too much" is a value only to be assessed by running longer term testings.
in order not to make them mini warships - one might increase their armour protection by maybe 6 times - but remove ALL the weapons from ALL transports. - so we d end up with transports that can usually make it to the next base in house space - but are of no danger to the pirate whatsoever.
its just about what survivability involves - surviving by staying alive - or surviving by removing the threat.
about people choices and roleplay...
people tend to roleplay when the choice they are given is reasonable - and it is a REAL choice. - but how can that happen, when even hardened veteran players in that community applaud pirates that hit miners and traders for tens of millions "cause these filthy players make a tenfold of it in one hour".
as long as that attitude is around - and players feel justified to overtax other players - the choice they offer is only to satisfy a rule, but nothing else. arguing that a "life of a characters is priceless" doesn t work either.
so - when you make reasonable demands, you usually get reasonable roleplay. when you fail to do so, you don t get roleplay. its not very related to the weaponpower of the ship.
on a last note... of course the idea of escorts on every ship that is required to have escorts is messed up.
usually on a 200 ppl server, i would guess that there are :
- around 70 transports / traders / miners
- 20 capital ships ( cruisers, battleships )
- 30 lowbies /newbies
- the rest are freelancers, mercs, pirates etc.
now lets make the math and apply at least 2 escorts to each ships that needs them. - making it 100 ships in need of at least 2 escorts - so we need around 300 slots - along with the pirates and lawfuls - we get a requirement of like 400 people. - too bad we only have 200.
from that point of view - yes, transports AND capital ships might need to defend themselves, cause the game mechanics and server limitations simply don t allow them to get what they need, no matter how hard they try. but like i said - every change you make affects the whole -
Well I know that there is something wrong with the transport class at all. I will try to give some input on it.
I think not that transports needs a hull /agility/size buff- they needs better gun options.
Turret type 4 is useless- this must be the turret type against bombers and fighters.
General Hull/Agility point:
If you go back in the time there was the some topic about it. there were guy who made Exel calculator showing that even the transport took all the dps from GB or bomber , the transport can fly 15-20k with armour update and bots/bats.I tried to search for it and find it but I failed.
May be the 5k house ships like Mastodon and Shetland can get more armour- 10 or 20% more - they have no guns at all.Adding more such kind of transports will be more dificult as making one non-house specific like Adv.Train. 5k civilian transport free for all with 500 bots/bats and 200k-220k hull, thruster no guns. Transport Guns and Liner problems:
The transports are just fine - they need better protection against small ships.Making the 3.3 refire to 4.0 refire on the type 4 can do it(keeping the dps and the energy drain).If we go back in the time we will see that the old (blue one) transport turret was much more efficient. There are house small transport turrets- you can easy add more variations of transport turrets. There could be added turrets with less dps but less energy using for spaying the bombers.
Liners and CTrasnps must receive a better core- right now ships that cost 120-170 mill credits are equal in PvP terms with P-Transport-25 mill because of its size and agility.
Prison liner with the current stats,turrets arcs and price is useless ship.
The slave liner turrets could receive from 10% to 20% buff in range and in dps output and restrict them only to that ship- many reasons to do so- price,size of the ship,cargohold,agility and actual usage of the ship-nobody will buy ship with 3900 cargo and 170mill to smuggle when he can buy ship for 90 mill and 4300 cargo.
All liners might get buffed turrets who are restricted to liner only.
Shields:
Right now there are only 3 shield types- 30k,50k and 100k. The 100k one have proved itself as useless against bomber EMP cannons. With its recharge rate and energy drain nobody use it. The 50k one is middle option- not good, but still mediocre one- may be to make him 60k with the same drain an recharge?
The 30k is much better then all of them. I would keep his stats and boost the 100k one to 120k keeping the same recharging rate and energy drain. So there will be some people who will use it-it will be good shield for ships who count not on agility to run away but on hull and shield stats.
Some people abuse the game mechanics using freighter 1k shield and up it to absorb snac shoots.
Transports should not be able to mount freighter shields.
The shield recharge on Transport ships is balanced with SNAC refirerate- It is damn good balanced if you use 30k shield.The chance bomber to hit the recharge with SNAC is fair enough.The other 2 types shield just need to be buffed. May be the 50k recharge can be buffed too a bit.
Escorts:
Jynx is not absolutely right about the escorts- a long time ago I tried hard to RP a escort plot.I begged traders to hire me even for 500k or so but 90% of them refused.Even miners with full cargo hold with ore refused to pay me 1 mill for escort.One escort can escort up to 3 trader ships.
Buff official trade factions giving them good transport who can act against pirates and haul 1k-2k cargo-
Q-boat idea.
The good organised traders or miners who fly in convoy have little to no problem with the pirates. We should encourage new players to join to the official corporations. If you want to buff transport ships buff the official corporation ones-give them q-boat.The official corporations could be able to form a convoys.How often you see lone traders and how often you see convoys? Space is dangerous if you go alone to trade you most probably will end killed or robed.
I think that pirates have good transport pirate ships-Raba and Pirate Transport, it will be nice if traders receive a q-boat to counter it. Look at this links here about it: http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68390
It is something that people want and need at that time.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Thanks for coming in. As you said, things didn't escalate, and you had good success. I'm still convinced that people, if they feel like they can hold their own in the possibility that things escalate, will be content to stand with the other party on even ground. It might even result in less trigger-happy pirates in the long run. Of course as in all cases people might rage at you, bolt or start shooting, but that happens regardless. A sad angry shut-in in a transport is still a sad angry shut-in once they're in a ship designed for assault instead of commerce.
I respect your experience on this matter. I just believe that less feelings of frustration through helplessness will be good for the morale of the trader class as a whole, and ultimately benefit the server. It will also mean more transports establishing themselves as characters to be interacted with, as well as bolder ones so less of them run silent and fly off the plane when confronted.
The other side of the coin when it comes to tougher, more dangerous transports is that the Rogues and Corsairs also have access to ships of that class. I'd only be so bold as to propose a redesign across the board if everyone could benefit from it.
This is just a proposal to shift power more toward the middle when that lone trader/smuggler meets that lone malcontent in his bomber/gunship out in the middle of nowhere. Does the lone trader/smuggler have a right to put up a good fight when disrupted by the lone merc/pirate/lawman/rival pirate on the other side of a gate/jumphole?
Jinx:
I assumed that everyone uses the Blue Solution or default forum skin. I changed my original post back to normal and just added some bullets to make it more readable. Hope it's to your liking.
The changes I initially proposed won't make those no-guns 5k transports or even trains anything resembling competent when put up against opposition. It will make Behemoths, Percherons, Mining Ships and the Akegata/Shire class worth worrying about to the lone gunslinger out in the wastes.
Escorts are a good idea across the board. Even fighters and bombers even do exponentially better with a wingman or two. They're just not so useful when the ship being escorted is by comparison a helpless bullet magnet unless he pays with the money the escort should be receiving. I'd just propose that transports with the adequate weapon slots be given some more agility across the board, a bit more survivability and stronger point defense options to better synchronize with escorts.
Civilian ships in this game world are in fact highly capable when designed for it. Refer to the Eagle and Roc. Freighters, designed for commerce instead of combat, also are highly capable in a combat support role. I am simply advocating this role for Transports as well.
Honestly, I fail to see a problem with transports becoming Poor Man's Gunships. A high population of transports of differing corporate factions all suddenly wise to the fact that "weapons mishaps" can occur in the event of house/corporate rivalry or to protect a monopoly would be amazing.
On an added note: The DPS of the Type 1 and 2 transport weapons leads everyone to equip them to fend off gunboats, only to be laughed at by any decent pilot who simply sits 800m out and pounds them while easily dodging the 600m/s return fire. It's not all about the damage the gun can do. Gunships are already smaller and more agile than transports, and their weapons are far easier to hit a target with. Hell, certain destroyers are tiny compared to most midrange transports. They won't ever be 100% on par with warships, but let's make them in the right circumstances worthy of some respect.
Blubba:
Q-Ships were my inspiration too. But taken on a more moderate level; a lot of times things don't get done unless they are offered to the guys doing them in very small bites.
transports becoming poor mans gunships is something i can live with. but some transports are already poor mans gunships that outperform rich mans gunships. ( well - rich in terms of military, cause the transport actually costs more than the gunship )
the main problem is that transports follow different rules than gunships. - and not all the rules can be changed.
a transport with teeth can still enter the system after a pvp death - as long as it was doing the trading job. - a gunship cannot - for example.
transport defense weapons underlay the same problems like large battleships defense weapons. and while i personally agree that both need much better PD weapons, its a minority that believes that - and a majority that believes in weak PD weapons.
personally i would change the shields and armour. - allow fast anti-SN shields ( like the 30k civilian shield tha pops up after 6 seconds instead of 12 - add a 50k and 100k variant ... remove the drain )
the drain was a good idea on the paper, but i believe that it doesn t do justice to the transports.
we could maybe even make transport shields take up cargo ( always a choice for transports )
so - lets say....
armour takes up .. up to 300 cargo ( for a high end CAU )
50k shield takes up to 500 cargo, 6 seconds recharge
100k shield takes up to 1250 cargo, 5 seconds recharge
200k shield takes up to 3000 cargo, 4 seconds recharge
which may sound like a lot balances it out.... cause it turns even a 5k train into a medium transport - but a well protected one
while turning a medium transport into a small one ( hence - a poor mans gunship )
In response to Jinx's post, I have a minor adjustment. Keep the current sheild layout (perhaps some modifications) but do something similar to the shields like we did the hull (armor multipliers). Shield chargers that take up space and speed up the recharging process. Again they take up additional cargo room. In this way, you have a shield multiplier as well as a means to regenerate faster. Traders can either buff up their transports with both hull and shield multipliers, sacrificing their cargo holds, or pick either or, having the stronger hull; for those who pass though radiation pockets) or quicker shields; for those that traverse embargo lines and pirate grounds.
I have to disagree here. Better shields aren't the answer. The shields are fine. Transport hulls are tough enough, with a decent armor upgrade, to take a good pounding while waiting for the shield to pop back up and then get botted to full. The problem is, while they can take a pounding, they can't dish it back. A target that moves is still just a target. But a target that can hurt you back is something to pause and think about.
I'm not going to try to dictate what the various ship classes were intended to do within our community and game, but I will leave with some food for thought. Gunboats, in history, weren't ships of the line writ small. In the middle ages and renisance they were small craft with one or two guns used to intercept lightly or unarmed transports and merchantmen. When the merchantmen started going more heavily armed, the gunboats mobbed them, stole the armed merchantmen, and then pirated in those. The merchantmen were better craft. Then, in the world wars, the gunboats got a face lift. They became the PT boats. 18 to 30 foot boats that carried 2 to 6 torp tubes and 3 or 4 anti-fighter/bomber guns. Still far smaller than armed merchantmen but far more fragile. Once again, they were designed to swarm the larger craft, not take them one on one. The job of merchant raider has historically been given to frigates, submarines, and privateer merchantmen for just this reason. Gunboats were stronger than bombers, true, but not as strong as armed merchantment or thier destroyer and frigate escorts. When a poormans ship of the line was needed, an armed merchantman was converted, not a gunboat. Look to the example of the merchant aircraft carriers and q-ships of WW I and II.
I understand, we don't have enough player spots to engage in large capital battles realistically. That said, making it so that a Gunboat needs at least a light fighter with it to regularly and reliably take down the lone transport doesn't seem like it would unbalance that. If even bombers are meant to have a fighter with them, why should the next class up not need them? As it stands, ton for ton, the Gunboats are the most powerful, versatile, and affordable vessels in the game. Transports on the other hand are underpowered, niched, and very expensive. They are fifty million credit starfleas.
Very interesting ideas in the thread. I take 3 main ideas and I'd like to add my 2 cts:
1-Currently transports alone have no chance against pirates and that's boring
2-The Scort solution is not a solution, as Jinx has very well explained
3-I kind of agree that what transports need is a buff on weapons.
How about this as general Blance Rule:
Buff transports weapons in such way that 1 transport alone cannot win against a bomber or GB, but 2 transports cannot be beaten by a lone GB or Bomber.
The advantage is:
-For transports they will have a reasonable chance to find just 1 mate with whom to travel/trade together and have a chance against pirates
-For pirates it will force them also to find mates to pirate with if they want to have good chances of succes against transport groups
And it will be more fun for all. What's the point of:
2millordie....
no
pew pew
boom......
.
.
.
.
How to do it, leave this to the balance masters, but I think the best is to increase Transport weapons with GB turrets....(incl missile ones :-)
Quote:Buff transports weapons in such way that 1 transport alone cannot win against a bomber or GB, but 2 transports cannot be beaten by a lone GB or Bomber.
The advantage is:
-For transports they will have a reasonable chance to find just 1 mate with whom to travel/trade together and have a chance against pirates
-For pirates it will force them also to find mates to pirate with if they want to have good chances of succes against transport groups
How to do it, leave this to the balance masters, but I think the best is to increase Transport weapons with GB turrets....(incl missile ones :-)
Well right now 2 P-transps/Behemoths/Rabas/B.Dragons can slay single gunboat without much problems if they are all equal armoured.Missile turrets want make big difference.- good pilots tend to avoid it,noobs tend to spam it.Right now there is no way how 2 transports can beat single bomber in PvP.They can beat him if they have enough hull/shield bots/bats in order to escape from him.Skilled pirates dont pirate in bombers- it is too easy. I prefer VHF/SHF combined with P- transp. You can kill a lot in this combination and you have 3100 cargo for loot the rests. The problem is that all transports are under the same category- You cannot compare Mamuth,P trans , Lux liner and 5k train- they are all transports but they are a way too different from each other- they have different tactics in order to survive from pirates. Bombers should be able to trash every transport- but if the transport have enough hull and use clever his bots and bats the transport do have a chance to fly 15- 20k right now. If we give more hull to transports and buff type 4 turrets, buff 12 guners cores and liner cores and you will have nice transports.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Long time no see, looking at this fun topic, since I generally love transports. I hate to see however that balance proposals have not moved much from 2009 when 4.85 balance was introduced. Proposals are still similar to what we had on the dev team and what we tested.
All in all, you can changed transports all day long but generally they will stay the same. Big bulky and slow, and there isn't much that can be done about it without seriously upsetting balance.
With current stats it's what it is, without radical change it won't be much diffrent. But with that you need a lot of diffrent things to change. First and foremost gunboats. With gunboats come cruisers, then battleships.. and everything goes wrong.
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