Permanent death would be too much time waster- fee or equip lost is nice compromise.
I also agree with Knjaz that we does not need EVE stuff - because people even in this relaxed situation cry 24/7 now.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Adding much death penalty at all, be it losing money or otherwise, really wouldn't be great, either.
I'm a lowly newbie getting by as a attempted indie-bounty hunter. I am barely getting by, as my ship doesn't have codes, nor can I afford a bunch of nukes or other bread and butter "tough guy" weapons. I get trounced a lot.
So if I lost money (I addition to ammo etc) I would be really below the other well established people. Furthermore... Lots of people seem quite capable of making millions easily, while others are not. What would the penalty be? To high and the new fish can't do anything. To low and it only effects the new fish.
Additionally, it would make military players kind of rely on having alternate characters to get by. I don't imagine they're well established sources of money... And they'd be fighting a lot on principle.
' Wrote:I think this is the biggest mistake you are making McNeo. Roleplaying emulates reality, it is not reality. In fact, the word play is part of the word itself. If it was a Freelancer reality server... well, I was going to provide examples about time and age but you get the point.
Look, my point is that we are playing roles within a gaming system, not a real life system. I'm actually a reenactor in real life and I do the same sort of stuff.... If I'm reenacting a 16th century mercenary and I get a giant gash from a halberd I'm going to go to the hospital, not put leeches on my wound, suture, and pray to god.
The drawbacks of having a perma-death type system far outweigh the benefits of "more real".
Precisely, which is why even permanent death on FL would not preclude you from continuing the story of your character. The drawbacks of having a perma-death system only outweigh the benefits of moving closer to the emulation of reality based upon your subjectively assigned valuation of whatever it is you find "fun". Have you ever considered that "more real" might mean "more fun" to some people?
' Wrote:Then why fix what's not broken?
Loads of rebalance and price change and whatnot just to make people pissed when they die cause they'd know as cheap as the equipment they have to replace might be, they still have to spend 2 hours flying around and rebuying them all, while the more subtle method to enforce a death penalty would be something along the lines with Kuraine's example.
And here's the thing - It's a game, not a job. It shouldn't be grindlancer cause not everyone have 14 hours of free time a day to be totally ok with losing 10 hours of work just because of makin a wrong move and turnin into pretty fireworks. Those who do have the time, can be my guest and delete their character upon death just so they'd be satisfied with their "more real grindpool" while anyone else who barely gets enough free time to even trade for ammo money would still be free to play the actual game without the need of mindless grinding hour after hour.
I don't mind a small moneysink just to spice things up, but anything that'd turn the game into a mindless grinding loop is one thing I don't want to see in disco.
If it weren't broken, people wouldn't complain about ganking, people wouldn't rather explode than pay the pirate, and the same pirate wouldn't then rather fight and die to the navy than run away.
What you're saying is essentially "why chase perfection when perfection is unattainable?" to which I point to the full history of the human race and it's collective race towards a bigger, better and faster everything.
Your challenge to those who want this kind of play environment is also self-defeating. The economy isn't designed to facilitate closed systems or perma-death, so anybody creating their own structure for this to take place is essentially playing in single player, isolated from everybody else who plays by the predominant rules of the server. In addition, you would also generate inequality, which is what a lot of people complain about when they complain about "elitism" and "cliques", as some would hold themselves to a standard where others do not.
Spending 2 hours flying about rebuying everything is a price in itself. In fact, it's an acceptable price, since it doesn't take a stupid amount of time and you can avoid such a price by simply not dying.
If what you're advocating is that this little virtual system doesn't penalise anyone for losing, you end up with nobody losing at all. Hardly realistic when every story ever told has a winner and a loser, including the one in FL's SP storyline.
As for all this stuff about how people would hate each other and things like that, that's realistic too. The world isn't all fields of flowers and blue skies drenched in sunshine. It's grey with the smoke of industry and red with the blood of the people sacrificed for greater economic output, with which both you and I benefit from every day without thinking about. A bit of hate is hardly such a steep price to pay. Unless you wish only to put your head in the sand and deny that reality is as predatory as it is.
There are many concepts that a perma-death system would allow to be sufficiently explored to an extent simply not possible with the current system. Above all, the social aspects of humanity, which are not adequately represented in a system with no losers.
' Wrote:<...>
If it weren't broken, people wouldn't complain about ganking,
<...>
uhm, you want to tell us situation would improve if there would be a shiploss on death?
I tell you what else happens, in addition to what I mentioned before - huge ooRP alliances. Constant ooRP agreements.
"Hey, we gonna move through that area, don't shoot us, k'ay?
"K'ay!"
"Guys, we're new RM faction, we're going to take over Omega 7, you're new hessian faction. Let's unite our playerbase and we'll log in our chars to keep that place clear of any opposition. Sounds good?
"Yeah, pure profit! <strike>And lets make a corsair faction as well!</strike> "
Do you really want EVE ONLINE? A Player and Clan, not Character and Faction driven environment?
Adding much death penalty at all, be it losing money or otherwise, really wouldn't be great, either.
I'm a lowly newbie getting by as a attempted indie-bounty hunter. I am barely getting by, as my ship doesn't have codes, nor can I afford a bunch of nukes or other bread and butter "tough guy" weapons. I get trounced a lot.
So if I lost money (I addition to ammo etc) I would be really below the other well established people. Furthermore... Lots of people seem quite capable of making millions easily, while others are not. What would the penalty be? To high and the new fish can't do anything. To low and it only effects the new fish.
Additionally, it would make military players kind of rely on having alternate characters to get by. I don't imagine they're well established sources of money... And they'd be fighting a lot on principle.
Joining the server without any PvP skills and without any good funding to equip normal fighter/bomber you have bad chance to do it good as hunter, however you still can make 30-40m per hour with trading ship.
One bomber costs 30m max, one fighter 20-25m, set of the best guns cost 100m. So you would need to trade 10 hours to get your equipped trader ship and to equip hunter bomber/fighter. So tell me after this 10 hours you got the ships and let say 30-40m to buy ammo. Then it is kinda too easy.
I remember once when one Rogue killed me because I had no money to pay to him- it was like 3-4 years ago. I needed to sell the turrets of my mammoth to buy cargo- exactly at that point I was scared to die because I just was not able to afford it, but after a couple of runs it was not problem anymore. Traders should fear the pirates- pirates should fear the lawfuls.
Look at McNeo post- he explain it rather well- also adding more dmg would make people to think twice before go out to dock and restock and re-engage- it would be costly.
So in general it is a way too easy to make credits and keep them in discovery universe. Since 2 years ago you could sell and buy ships- so you does not need to loose anything if you decide to change your RP too.
If you are willing to play as bounty hunter in Liberty drop me PM. Sometimes I fly around the place and I could help you with the basics. I hope you get my point.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
' Wrote:Frankly, those arguments hold no water. Each part of the economy can be changed to reflect the increased risk of actual death on death. It's as simple as changing a batch of numbers (I would vastly increase trade revenues and lower prices of most ships for example). What these arguments show is the failure by people to consider that along with an introduction of loss on death, a lot of other changes would happen as well.
While that's one solution, but the problem then is that we'd all have two or three bank ships for the hundreds of billions of credits we'd need - especially after something like a fleet battle. And of course, that also completely negates all training combats, where people sit and shoot eat other for hours - not to mention that they'd run into situations with the loss of reputations as well.
' Wrote:You say that it would encourage people not to fight at all unless they were guaranteed victory? This is how people fight, how they will always fight. Removing this is tantamount to destroying the RP environment. All of you who say that it should be "fun" are fearful of becoming the losers in a system that neccessitates winners -and- losers. Yet, that is the system in which we live, and should therefore be reflected in any kind of gameplay atmosphere that dares to call itself a roleplaying one.
This is incorrect.
' Wrote:To this I simply say, untrue. Entirely untrue. I'm more than happy to dive headfirst into a group of enemies that I wouldn't dream of trying to engage if I knew I'd lose my ship.
A. Because I can do it all again tomorrow without grinding on a trader.
B. Because I can die gloriously and it will be fun for all of those involved.
This is correct.
As basically everyone that's in the BHG|Core can testify, especially when we had our regularly scheduled combats with the Order, my ship (regardless of WHAT ship I was flying) tends to die first. Did that prevent me from having fun in the combats? Hell, no - I always had a blast. If I was 30 years younger and still had the reflexes I had back then, I'd probably be pretty good at PvP. As is, I suck at it, and know I suck at it. Doesn't mean I don't still have fun with it.
' Wrote:Realistic behaviour is something that this server doesn't have, both in its mechanics and its economics...
Huh, could that be because this is a GAME that we play for fun?
' Wrote:If it's just a game and should be treated that way, you can be a winner when you play skyrim. Hey, you can be guildmaster of the dark brotherhood, the thieves guild, the mages guild and general of the imperial legions at the same time. If you really don't want to lose, that's the kind of game for you. And even then, NPCs are going to be shooting fireballs at you in a vain attempt to make you lose.
I'd rather lead the StormCloaks - and include the mod where I kill Ulfric, because quite frankly, I'd make a better leader of Skyrim than he is. Especially since I like to kill Thalmar, because I'm well aware that they are causing the problem.
' Wrote:And here's the thing - It's a game, not a job. It shouldn't be grindlancer cause not everyone have 14 hours of free time a day to be totally ok with losing 10 hours of work just because of makin a wrong move and turnin into pretty fireworks. Those who do have the time, can be my guest and delete their character upon death just so they'd be satisfied with their "more real grindpool" while anyone else who barely gets enough free time to even trade for ammo money would still be free to play the actual game without the need of mindless grinding hour after hour.
I don't mind a small moneysink just to spice things up, but anything that'd turn the game into a mindless grinding loop is one thing I don't want to see in disco.
As noted above - you want to play 'Ironman' disco, then delete your character. I've already done the grind when helping set up my faction for officialness. So while I have 20 characters on the server with about 400 million per account right now, I only have time to play about 20-30 minutes every couple of nights now. But I've also been on the server for about 4 years, too. I want to try out a new ship, I'll go do it. Rebuying my Mako every time two order bombers - or worse, an NPC Ossie spawns 3 meters from my ship - isn't my idea of fun.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
I've already explained how my interpretation is oriented, which you seem not to be able to grasp. I don't intend to quote myself again, Agmen. Fun isn't the same for everybody.
Inflation? Why? Most of people will get their desired ship sooner or later while literally annoying anyone else who simply cannot afford so much time into current trade grind.
Lower the prices instead of figuring out ways to kick people out of server.
Making the game more challenging is different then kicking players from the server.
If you think that it takes too long to get stuff then play disco of disco- one restart and you got it.
The main reason why the have anything server is empty and hard to get anything server is full is the challenge.
Winning must have good taste in order to cover the loosing sadly this community just cannot loose- cannot accept the loosing- hence all low tactics- ganking, going out of fight to feed bots, trolling and such,certain OP ship combinations, certain OP faction ships and guns.
Nobody said full loss of ship- I would find this annoying- you loose ship by training etc or in PvP- I am up to make it only small financial percentage to represent the loss, I have no fun flying 10 systems away to buy ship then 5 more systems for guns and then do missions bribes etc. However I would like to see traders with ships that cost 100+ not to rp like full morons because they want to annoy the pirate by not paying him cause they already have couple of billions in the account. Same with the running out of battle to feed bots and come back- do it but when you dock you pay 1-2m to repair your vessel then you come back..
However since you does not get the point and are too concerned in winning trying to avoid any possible loss I cannot explain this to you. Most of you just cannot think rational and get out of your pity small hypocrite you.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Also note that if we were to go down the path of permanent death, it is possible to use flhook to implement a system of having a set number of lives per ship before it is permanently destroyed. This may make things slightly less damaging for the sake of gameplay while still also having a serious penalty for when you finally run out of lives. I am personally against this idea except for specific circumstances like special roleplay vessels perhaps and other admin only trophies etc. But other people might well like it.
As for McNeo, I do understand your point and where you're coming from, although I and most others here generally disagree with it. I have played quite a number of online games where death is permanent and you start back from square one with literally nothing, and you are only allowed a single character per IP. It ended up making everyone unwilling to ever risk anything (even pirates) and assassinations were commonplace, as were gankfests. I saw people quit the game all the time once they died (usually from assassinations by people that were bribed from inside their factions). People still had fun of course, but they had fun from a distance as it were, with nobody ever getting within gun range let alone knife range.
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