Godslayer Balance Essay

[The_Godslayer]

At the moment, a average VHF player kills a normal GB player 1v1.

I haven't seen it in a VHF, however I have a personal experience with a bomber.

I've heard that the Corvo is not a good ship for pvp, but I've won versus a Corvo with an Upholder with minimal chance for the Gunboat to recover due to a very tiny difference in skill. That player and I have a very minimal skill gap, in basically any other pvp game the results of our combat would be a high effort competition with a coin toss result, and in Discovery it's a low effort beatdown with a guaranteed result.

The exact same thing applies the other way around. There are some players who have a very small difference in skill above me. They are effectively untouchable for me in pvp. I'm guaranteed a low effort, one-sided beatdown every single time. The only time I've ever bridged even the tiniest of skill gaps above me was when borderline-miracle occurrences of chance, things like someone's early turn line carrying them into a mine that was dropped two turns ago, or a tiny bump that spun them to face away from me and spun me to face towards them. And to win against a skill mismatch requires these insane luck occurrences to happen a huge number of times in a row.

I'm notoriously pretentious, but assuming that I am the exact center of average is a lot, even for me. My experience of the state of PvP being either a low effort one-sided beatdown of someone barely below my skill level or a low effort one-sided beatdown from someone barely above my skill level matches what your experience of old PvP. From where I'm standing, the only thing that's changed is that you're forced to fight with no hope for 15 minutes instead of 3 or 4. On top of that, knowing that even with this extended TTK from removing instakills, it requires an actual act of God to punch even slightly out of my designated skill area makes underdog wins incredibly sour. I cannot gaslight myself into believing that I locked in and clutched up when a simple check on a recording shows me that my enemy was statistically struck by lightning three times in 15 minutes. Finally, cinematic moments like chainfiring Hurricane FWGs or uncloaking an Ishtar close enough to hear the sound effects are also simply gone, I cannot just engage in living up the fantasy, no matter the battle results, either.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Chxlls]

The exact same thing applies the other way around. There are some players who have a very small difference in skill above me. They are effectively untouchable for me in pvp. I'm guaranteed a low effort, one-sided beatdown every single time. The only time I've ever bridged even the tiniest of skill gaps above me was when borderline-miracle occurrences of chance, things like someone's early turn line carrying them into a mine that was dropped two turns ago, or a tiny bump that spun them to face away from me and spun me to face towards them. And to win against a skill mismatch requires these insane luck occurrences to happen a huge number of times in a row.

I don't mean to sound rude when I say this, but if someone is only marginally better than you skill-wise, then they wouldn't be effectively untouchable. @Haste is definitely better than me in snubs, but he isn't untouchable. Our fights are decently competitive. Either you are understating the skill level of the people you're fighting, or you're overstating your own abilities in fights.

If better players are beating worse players, then balance would be in a good state. Like others in this thread have pointed out, it has never been more easier than RIGHT NOW to get good in snubs. If what you're arguing for is more variance within the game to allow people to "punch up", just understand that those same mechanics that play to that idea are going to be infinitely more abused by more skilled players to "punch down" against lesser players, especially in the age of 240hz monitors and gaming setups that allow skilled players to miss much, much less than in previous iterations of Discovery.

The more I read this thread, the more I get confused about what solutions are being offered to the supposed problems that snubs have right now, that aren't "bring back SNAC", or aren't dripping in 10+ years of delusional nostalgia making their way to the forefront.

[HUMPHRESS]

Oh lorde this thread is still going?

Ill throw in my 2 cents; imo the core balance of disco should revolve around GBs, Cruisers, and BCs. Snubs and Battleships should exsist in more support oriented (and yes perhaps underpowered) positions.

For Battleships; it wouldve been awesome if they could be these overpowered lumbering machines of death. The catch being that only OFs can get them, and at max they get like 2. There would be special rules around them of course, but they would live up to their name.

This is impossible now, people dont want to give up their battleships. Still in theroy it would be great.

Alright, imma keep this short.

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[Madvillain]

I’d like to clarify something regarding my earlier response to Chenzo's post about the 30 seconds on screen and the need for instant-kill weapons. I don't think bringing back the SNAC in its original form would be a great idea balance wise. I also think the current selection of mines is quite solid, though the Swatter may be a bit overpowered as it stands.

What I was aiming for was the idea of "glass cannon" type weapons. For example, a missile with an enormous blast radius and/or high damage, but you can only carry one. Or guns that perform exceptionally well but have very limited ammo, things like that. These weapons wouldn’t be useful for racking up multiple kills in quick succession, so they wouldn't necessarily benefit aces, but they could give someone who's not great at PvP a lucky kill every once in a while. Limited ammo could also promote more tactical and even logistical gameplay.

I know I’m suggesting some unusual ideas here, but the main point I want to emphasize is: think outside the box, especially when it comes to appeasing new or less pvp oriented players. I understand balancing this game is extremely difficult, and I want to be clear: I think you guys have done an amazing job so far. The balance feels much better than it did five years ago, and definitely ten years ago, when even ships within the same class were terribly unbalanced. You've given players a real reason to enjoy light fighters, heavy fighters, missiles, and much more, and that’s fantastic.

The balance is looking good, but unfortunately, people's emotions don’t always align with the facts. So now, we need to seriously think about how to make players feel like they have better ships, weapons, and more choices to make. That’s an entire science in itself, and it involves more than just numerical balance. it’s also about customization, sound, visuals, and the overall experience.

I see a lot of people saying things that don't align with the facts in this thread. A lot of it is just spewing raw emotion, and blunt and confusing as that may be, it is also a good sign. It means people really care about this game and this community. I would like to see people be less hostile and more constructive in their criticisms. All that hard work, and don't underestimate how much hard work it is, is not something we should take for granted. It's being done for you, and for you and for you, and for me, and none of us pay a dime for it.

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Baila Morena | Toilet Trouble | Elder Presidente[TBH] | The Titan Combat Manual | Confession

[Lythrilux]

What I was aiming for was the idea of "glass cannon" type weapons. For example, a missile with an enormous blast radius and/or high damage, but you can only carry one.

Have you heard of the cannonball...

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[Madvillain]

What I was aiming for was the idea of "glass cannon" type weapons. For example, a missile with an enormous blast radius and/or high damage, but you can only carry one.

Have you heard of the cannonball...

I don't think that grasps the point of my post...
But yeah, cannonball is fun!

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Baila Morena | Toilet Trouble | Elder Presidente[TBH] | The Titan Combat Manual | Confession

[Lythrilux]

What I was aiming for was the idea of "glass cannon" type weapons. For example, a missile with an enormous blast radius and/or high damage, but you can only carry one.

Have you heard of the cannonball...

I don't think that grasps the point of my post...
But yeah, cannonball is fun!

They have a pretty generous blast radius and do high damage. I do get what you mean, but I feel like they mostly cover this niche. I only really started using them a couple days ago and they're good fun.

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[LuckyOne]

Here's some feedback from someone who is also on the lower end of the curve skill-wise when it comes to PVP.

The new balance is really frustrating to me. There are very few ways to deal significant chunk damage now that don't rely on great aiming skills.

Sure, I can now deshield people. That's an improvement for certain. The problem is after I spend three quarters of my core deshielding I am left with very little possibility of dealing significant hull damage.

Missiles are incredibly wonky, and quite easily counterable. The convenient and reliable mines are gone. The fast velocity & fast refire guns can hit but only deal a tiny fraction of chip damage before one gets stuck there with an empty core.

As Godslayer noticed, against a foe of any higher skill level it evolves into an exercise in frustration where in each pass I see my shield and core emptied and hull slowly chipped away with little way to counter it other than sheer luck or meme facetank.

In case of a duel on similar skill level it just feels like an unnecessary long stalemate. Something like 15 minutes of both of us getting deshielded, missing our heavier hitting guns and staring at each other with empty cores at least half of the time.

For caps it's a similar story. Cap vs cap you spend most of your time watching that core powerbar recharge and feeling extremely underpowered. Mortars that used to be a satisfying long range artillery option are now little stings towards the huge chunk of hull points compared to their damage output.

On caps like cruisers or BCs your most efficient guns only fire backwards so you have to completely swap your playstyle compared to other caps and snubs.

Caps vs snubs it's even worse. It's similar to the bomber deathsquads we used to have a few patches back but now all the snubs are equally annoying and you have very little chance of dealing significant damage back to them. A competent snub player can now be basically untouchable if he keeps out of the effective flak / secondary / prim range, which is now significantly reduced compared to a few patches before.

As soon as a single cap leaves the safety of the fleet pack he gets eaten by a swarm of angry Piranhas (pun intended) with very little options to deal any damage in return.

[iiLeRoss]

As soon as a single cap leaves the safety of the fleet pack he gets eaten by a swarm of angry Piranhas (pun intended) with very little options to deal any damage in return.

If you're leaving the fleet formation and you get picked off by a snub swarm, you're being punished rightfully for poor decision making.

For caps it's a similar story. Cap vs cap you spend most of your time watching that core powerbar recharge and feeling extremely underpowered. Mortars that used to be a satisfying long range artillery option are now little stings towards the huge chunk of hull points compared to their damage output.

Having mostly played battleships this patch I report the opposite experience actually. I have ample core and my heavy weapons rips through targets. All the weapons had damage rescaled, but the amount of damage I'm doing percentage wise is about the same as it used to be.

Let me note that I am not even particularly good at shield toggle management or even blindfiring.

[Enko]

Here's some feedback from someone who is also on the lower end of the curve skill-wise when it comes to PVP.

The new balance is really frustrating to me. There are very few ways to deal significant chunk damage now that don't rely on great aiming skills.

May I ask, what was in the old balance that let you do significant chunks of damage that we can't use now?

Missiles are in a good place, they allow you to do decent damage with just ballpark shooting, you have so many of them that you can drain the CMs eventually and start doing work here. I've used missiles a lot in my time as a way to try to improve by contributing between shooting hullbusters and it is very noticable when they are not being used.

And how is the addition of CL1s being faster weapons not helping here?

The fast velocity & fast refire guns can hit but only deal a tiny fraction of chip damage before one gets stuck there with an empty core.

You take a Crusader and equip 4 Splitters vs 4 Rippers.

If you want me to validate math I can do so in a reply, but short of it is:

4 Splitters deal 16,576 hull damage in 4 seconds.
4 Rippers deal 11,328 hull damage in 4 seconds.

Let's say you hit 30% of those shots with the Splitters, you would deal 4,973 damage.
In theory you'll hit more, maybe say 50% of the shots with Rippers and you deal 5,664 damage.

Now 4 seconds is a lot of time, but you can get the same results with a smaller snapshot of time really, this is just a representative average.

I don't think it's a stretch that these guns hit more often considering the 150m/s speed boost they have, and with 20% more hits in this example you end up dealing more damage.

Even if you only hit 10% more than the CL2 example, that's still 4,531 damage. 9.75% worse damage. Basically in this example you would be doing 10% less damage if you hit 10% more with CL1s than if you had CL2s, by no means of the imagination I feel this is a 'tiny fraction of chip damage'.

Infact the only times that I feel worse using CL1s now is if I am jousting someone, in group fights where I get to click targets that are not in jousting constantly with me CL1s in my hands just outright out perform CL2s and it will likely remain that way unless my aim improves a lot.

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