''lets do nothing'' is getting kind of an old solution.
The thing is , most of us forgot what the intention of official factions is.
If the majority of the server really doen't care for RP and so on , yes infact official factions are completely useless then.
If that's not the case , official factions are clearly doing it wrong.
In my point of view disco is standing at a crossroads.
Does it want to be a RP server , or a PvP server.
It always tried to be a RP server , but lately a vast majority of people seem to be in favour of minimal/no RP at all.
I am not condemning it , maybe it's just time to throw my towel in the ring and accept that disco isn't the same thing it was when I joined.
(11-07-2012, 09:04 AM)madvillain Wrote: I am not condemning it , maybe it's just time to throw my towel in the ring and accept that disco isn't the same thing it was when I joined.
Amen my brother.
Me and Widow are doing our best to help the RP orientated ones stay in business, but we all know that bugger all is going to change in a hurry. You and I can do everything we can to make our factions fun and roleplay orientated but the bottom line is that that doesn't work against the majority of the PVP whores this server has infested to its core, not too mention other significant factors I care not to bring up here.
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(11-07-2012, 09:19 AM)Altejago Wrote:
(11-07-2012, 09:04 AM)madvillain Wrote: I am not condemning it , maybe it's just time to throw my towel in the ring and accept that disco isn't the same thing it was when I joined.
Amen my brother.
Me and Widow are doing our best to help the RP orientated ones stay in business, but we all know that bugger all is going to change in a hurry. You and I can do everything we can to make our factions fun and roleplay orientated but the bottom line is that that doesn't work against the majority of the PVP whores this server has infested to its core, not too mention other significant factors I care not to bring up here.
originally, official factions - or factions in general - served but one single reason: - to gather like-minded players under one banner and create a community.
back then, that was reason enough to create or join a faction.
what factions have become is a bit twisted and perverted... - it seems people believe that factions have become / or have to be some sort of beacon for roleplay.
instead of creating community, they seem to focus on installing additional rules ( ranks, restrictions, ingame-laws etc. )
and communion has become some sort of "hope to raise the ladder to enforce power" - or of a faction does not support that, it hardly offers something else but the very same that non-members can get. ( in other words, it does not offer a refugee for the like-minded )
traditionally, the general rules must apply to everyone. factions that are exempt from the general rules that must apply to everyone have failed in the past, mostly due to creating an unfair estrangement between the "normal" player and the "special members" - without justifying why they d be exempt.
that means that (most) factions cannot remove any general rule, but in order to be different, they only add to the rules.
todays factions either do not do anything different to non-members; or they have stricter rules, which are possibly meant to add "realism" or act as an artificial ladder of challenge - do good and you are rewarded.
especially the "do good and be rewarded"-system may be flawed for it has become either "be cool with your higher ups and you are rewarded, no matter how you do ingame..." or "just be active, pleeeeaaase...and you will raise in ranks"
in short, official factions really offer little that non-members can get. - and what they can offer, they often don t focus on enough - community.
some time ago i wrote that the half-life of a faction is probably rather short, - i still stand to that. a faction needs to re-invent itself over and over ... putting efforts into "member-care" all the time in order to survive and show positive reinforcement.
* * *
when asked "why are you a member of [insert name] faction?"
the answer should be like "cause i am with friends" or "cause this is exactly the role i want to play and there are people who support me that way"
it should not be "cause i have more rights than non-members" or "so i can show others the way" (you are not a tutor after all)
the difference is - the positive reasons are centered around oneself and/or involve those that enjoy the same treatment... it should focus on similarities not differences.
- ask yourself that "why did i join the faction? - i mean really and honestly... what are my reasons"
- "why should this player, who is not a member, join my faction" - keep in mind, a faction is community of like-minded .... there are players who have potential and all, but are different not to fit in. sometimes a "non-factionized"-player is a greater asset than one that was forced into a faction.
- "if i can only add more rules, what can i do to GIVE a member something he cannot get without membership?" ( really, if you cannot answer that one - you are lost ) - again the answer should not be "i give you power over others" - that is negative reinforcement.
- "what are the reasons to have an "official" faction - if the rules to keep the status have become a chore?" - be honest to yourself... keeping the status for the sake of the status? or cause there is a real reason.
in the past, some unofficial factions have shown a great deal more community - or rather if you compare them with fire, some official factions seem to burn on a minimal flame without much excitement, some unofficial ones had burned with a bright flame ( yet a much shorter lifetime )
* * *
faction leaders need to ask themselves that:
- what were the reasons we made that faction? ( go back and read your own faction creation )
- contemplate on your IDs lore. a faction usually needs to fight a loosing battle. - their greatest goal/ambition is to fight for something they cannot possibly achieve - achieving it means to make the faction obsolete ( think of gaians gaining full and legal control over gaia )
do not twist your lore around too much or you may not recognize it anymore.
- do you know all your members? - what is it that every member wants, do you know why they joined? - can you give it to them? or were most of it just ambitious but rather empty promises.
- if you cannot offer players what they want - it is not a sign for their unwillingness. it is a sign for them being different to what the faction stands for ( or you ). - remember, a faction is a group of like-minded players.
a faction can adjust to that by inviting different players and making compromises - but one must take care not to estrange members by inviting players who do not fit in. not fitting in is not a negative stigma, treating different players equally is a social skill however. - putting their differences to both sides benefit if possible.
- finally: a faction that disbands is not necessarily a sign of failure. it just means that the type of players who want to join such a faction have become too rare to carry on. do you really expect a group of like-minded players to stay together for years in a game that offers only limited change and novelty?
* * *
postscript:
if factions were a bird, they would be a "Kakapo". if factions had a condition it would be to be aware of dwindling numbers. if factions reacted naturally, they d do what the Kakapo does: play to their strength.
figure out whats the right strength and whats the wrong strength. (if you don t know the Kakapo, it is a chapter in Douglas Adams "last chance to see" report. - a bird that acts according to its instincts and nature - and yet does everything wrong ) - read it up... its funny and tragical.
(11-07-2012, 10:00 AM)Jinx Wrote: something to keep in mind:
originally, official factions - or factions in general - served but one single reason: - to gather like-minded players under one banner and create a community.
back then, that was reason enough to create or join a faction.
what factions have become is a bit twisted and perverted... - it seems people believe that factions have become / or have to be some sort of beacon for roleplay.
instead of creating community, they seem to focus on installing additional rules ( ranks, restrictions, ingame-laws etc. )
and communion has become some sort of "hope to raise the ladder to enforce power" - or of a faction does not support that, it hardly offers something else but the very same that non-members can get. ( in other words, it does not offer a refugee for the like-minded )
Dear Jinx.
I wonder where you base that on. The rights and responsibilities of official factions associated with rule 4.5 give a very different explanation about what official factions are supposed to do.
Then again , I wonder how many current faction leaders are even aware of those.
Something needs to be done to change that I think ...
Edit: whoops , post made by Madvillain on the wrong account.
Corsair LawsCorsair Court Our forces combined, no-one shall stand before us. Our enemies shall be burnt and cast to the wind, our troops marching forward over their mangled corpses. True we stand alone, with wolves circling, but our isolation lends us our strength, for we are one and they are divided.
The days of Darkness are no longer, for we are the Corsairs and we are fear incarnate! Viva los Corsairs, the Empire shall rise!
The blood of the Hispania runs in our veins. The blood of our enemies shall wet our hands.
It is easy to see that in the point towards OSC. Over the past 2 years it's indie player base, that never belonged to the main group of players pushing towards making a Official faction, has dwindled about an average of 20. The last time I saw a OSC Indie was so he could use a Liner as a walking fortress for Ore-Hauling from the Comet in the Omega's.
I know the dev's did in the last mod, try to improve the people commodities for trading. But that effect was only short lived, and the most profitable routes for those commodities, were ones that made no sense of any kind. These are routes of going in to Gallia, which OSC players avoid, because we in roleplay know we will got shot down by every lawfull, and won't be able to dock at the sell/buy locations inside.
Simply put, OSC is still completely a Rp focused faction, and is one of those factions that is slightly more unpopular to play, even though it has allot of outside support. Many a time, I tried to use this support, especially with other roleplay factions. Like XA-, however most of these events failed to get of the ground when push came to shove. OSC made other events as well, we then did as what would others advised. However this didn't have an effect, other then increase our awareness a little.
So, now to my own point. Even upon finding players who are of the old breed, be them new or old, (Incase of new, not falling to temptations of pvp madness) those players still go towards factions that they like. Most of the time, this is completely unbaised to how well or bad that faction is run. Where a bias maybe does come in, is when they decide to join the factions official faction.
The other thing I would like to say is, if we would really want disco to continue, in a way that we would like, then we need to gain those types of players. And make it interesting for them. Doing this is much more likely to solve the short term issue of problems we are currently facing with factions dropping rapidly in activity. As well as the long term of the overall activity drop of disco.
there is a certain wish about official factions to act as examples in a positive way indeed. - however... it is a guideline because official factions have structure.
it does not mean that an individual player may not act in the same way - execute the same influence on the storyline. - as a matter of fact, it is very much wished for EVERY player to act according to highest standards - not just official factions.
keep in mind....
when the official faction was created - there must have been a reason to join. - if the reason was to apply a higher level or roleplay ( subjective ) - such a reason should not have vanished. - if your "good" example shows no effect on others ( as it did on you, when you joined an official faction ) you either have to try harder or realize that your way is not what attracts other players ( see what i wrote about like minded players )
in the past - official factions and unofficial factions or individuals have affected the storyline, lore and roleplay alike. we devs focus on official factions mostly, cause it is easier - for an individual to make a similarly great impact, he has to work much harder to be noticed - but lets face it... even if its an official faction behind change - it really usually is very few players, sometimes a single player anyway ( no matter if he wears a tag or not )
but by pointing that out, you already presented a positive incentive to join a faction other than restrict others. - since official factions are easier to monitor in a good way - a player with a great vision has an easier time to make it become reality. - if he is surrounded by "like-minded" players, he may even find instant backup.
anyway .- what i wrote applies to "why you joined a faction"
i daresay - most players don t join, cause they want to be an example for others. - thats rather ooRP for an inRP game - and its also a bit rich sometimes.
most players really do want to join cause they want to feel like being part of a group ( or the head of a pack, you never know with some )
(11-07-2012, 11:47 AM)Jinx Wrote: @CorsairCouncil or whatever shared account or so:
there is a certain wish about official factions to act as examples in a positive way indeed. - however... it is a guideline because official factions have structure.
That's a rather weird argument.
(11-07-2012, 11:47 AM)Jinx Wrote: it does not mean that an individual player may not act in the same way - execute the same influence on the storyline. - as a matter of fact, it is very much wished for EVERY player to act according to highest standards - not just official factions.
Nowhere I am claiming anything different....
You are preaching to the choir now.
What I understand from Cannons words is:
''Official factions have the responsibility to clearly define the traits, objectives, and operational methods that identify their members. Those methods should be implemented responsibly, and with reasonable consideration towards adversaries who may be outnumbered or overpowered, but who nevertheless are entitled to similarly pursue contrary objectives. Official factions are guardians of the reputation of their NPC faction in general, and should always seek to act in ways that cause it to be respected.''
Official factions indeed should act as tudors and as examples to members of the NPC faction in general.
They are the ones that should be able to set a guideline for the rest to follow.
''Intent of Rule 4.7:
The intent of this right is to allow official faction leadership to also provide leadership, with discretion, to independent players, to improve server gameplay, fairplay, and roleplay.
This right is NOT intended to provide the official faction leadership the right to exercise power for its own sake.''
This stands in total contrast with your idea being that a official faction should be a self serving group of players.
It should in fact , be a group of players that is focused on maintaining a good RP environment , and that's devoted to work with others instead of only looking for ways to help/have fun themselves.
Anyway, It might be that you are trying to say the same thing , but it's being put to words in a weird way...
@Mad: yet - there are some that either demand, wish or agree that we require a change of rules of circumstances in order to save those factions.
i do not deny that rules need to evolve with time - but not as a savior of factions. factions can only save themselves by playing their strength without trying to make others weaker or playing to others weaknesses.
however - suit yourselves - each occasion where a selected group had enjoyed more freedom than others has failed so far - and i don t mean a mini faction vs. a generic one - i mean the rock hard rules within each faction.
a gaian IDed player must always be treated the very same like another gaian ID player, no matter if one of them has a tag and the other one has not.
ps.: madvillain, post #30 - you agree to deny non-factionized players the right to obtain a faction ID and leave them the only choice of a generic one. edit: yes - its different and actually not what i wrote before about "inner faction equality" - but really... its on the same page. it says "official factions gain an advantage over non-factionized players - no matter what" - you have not come up with exceptions and if there had to be exceptions ( like non-factionized players with faction IDs ) - how/who would decide on them.
anyway - that is a simple announcement of factions that do not meet the requirements. - what more is there to say. there are requirements to keep a status, and those requirements are not met. they were met at an earlier time - ( when the requirements were the very same ) - so what changed if it had not been the circumstances - unless the death of a faction is caused by the storyline or added / removed features of the game.
I haven't read it all, but I really admire Madvillains patos and genuine care for this game and the factions.
I think your interpretation is wrong though. I know a lot of people sit around and reminisce over faction leaders of the past and how everything was so great, and that the server population now sucks. Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps the current server generation isn't so interested in factions because the factions and its players don't stand out as those beacons of lights that once attracted you guys? I.e. rather than blaming those of us that have no interest in joining a faction (but still likes RP), perhaps ask yourself what your "ikons" did to draw you guys in back when you were new? There's generally an eagerness for new players to create their own factions alongside the official ones that represent the ID, and I think that says a lot: They basically want the same thing, but feel the official factions can't provide that for them so they create their own. If I was a faction player, that would really be food for thought for me.
I think transparency, and I mean real transparency, would restore some faith in factions. It is so easy to get the impression that a lot of factions are run by a handful of people that settle stuff on skype and so on. I have had some negative experiences in my time playing RNC for instance and I have been blamed for many different things by players who play in different factions - they heard all sorts of bad things about us, most of which aren't true, and that all stems from faction skype chats (or so I have been told by people accusing me of wrong-doings). It's frustrating having to defend oneself against something you have never done, even more so when you know this "slander" only exists because the power-relations in this community are skewed towards a small circle of players with influence on factions (their own and others) and admins. Yes, I even had an admin uncloak next to our group of RNC ships, first telling us we cause lag and we should feel bad (even though none of us were firing our weapons, and the server was having a lot of problems with the jumphole bug - but naturally our idle green ships MUST be the ones creating the lag, right?) then trying to goat us into making oorp comments in regards to his admin ship uncloaking in our face. Said admin apologized in PM's later, but it's a symptom of what is wrong: The entire system is corrupted, and nobody has the strength to rise above it.
It seems like a closed world, and as an indie player you are met with the attitude of "join up or you suck!" That might work on the weak-willed or kids, but for most of us we feel affronted - it's a sure-fire way to run off potential members for good. That's why I think the idea of "fakshun players dictate the RP" is very bad - a lot of us just aren't fit for that kind of power (perhaps you are in your own eyes, but that's not how it's perceived by a lot of those players who aren't given a voice), and there's no checks and balances save for yourselves. It's an unhealthy situation for the factions, as well as the indie players.
You need to open the faction system up, be inviting to more players, and not take the douchebaggery to the next level. You still hold the most vital selling point: In Disco, gank is King and noone can gank like a faction with high numbers of dedicated players. Joining a faction most likely means dying less and killing more - two things a lot of Disco'ers fancy. Plus you get the privilege of being treated as an equal and actually RP'ed with by some of those players who "dislike indies". Try to kill off skype and use the forum and the game, where transparency and accountability is ensured. It's a law of nature that in the disco universe that any power that can be wielded will be wielded. You are very much on the wrong path if you think the answer is to give factions more power.
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