Zoners

[Mister_X]

Sterling, my advice don't bother cuz some people.clearly just don't/won't listen.
As for you Tel Aviv just remember one thing the Za is an UNOFFICIAL faction and even if the Zoners would as you say control the Omicrons, that would be Phoenix and OSI since those are OFFICIAL Zonr factions
That said, ZA has no right to force any laws in any system...

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[Anaximander]

well - its sad that you cannot just be happy for a faction

It's not that I can't be happy for a faction, far from it, I just think in the grand scheme of things across the board Zoners are cannibalizing on other factions in terms of the freedom the Zoner ship line/ID/lore allows. And Zoner lore leaves a huge gaping hole for players both interested in playing Zoner characters and encountering them. Way too much is left to imagination and personal discretion, and that's a shame.

atm - yes, you try to "right the wrongs" which effectivly means putting the zoner faction down where it belongs to "capless, or restricted more than others, - and if possible demure and submissive"

I never said any of those things. In fact, I said for all I care Zoners can keep their warmarchine, as long as the ID and Lore backs it up and it has realistic diplomatic consequences. You can't stay neutral to all with the biggest army on the block, not even if you declare your army non-military and peaceful. All I want is Zoner presence in game to match lore and vice versa.

i just had to base it on my own experience - like - i do have 2 corsair chars - but i don t consider me a corsair player - i also have 1 outcast char without being an outcast and 1 gallic char - and hell i m not at all involved in the grand gallic politics. so i made a false assumption that - and i am deeply sorry for that.

Apology accepted.


[Off-topic]

Sugarcoat it under loving Discovery and addressing lore all you want, but if you cannot show why X faction should not be nerfed under the same logic as Y faction, then you have an issue with bias.

Because I don't think the conditions are similar for some of the other factions. Outcasts and Corsairs have been settled on planets for a long time, that requires a lot in terms of political structure, infrastructure, economy, educational system and other social structures. It requires a whole lot of coordination and unified goals. Both Crete and Malta are populated and have been so for a long time, although Outcasts are relatively speaking few in numbers. The Maltese even have a smashed sleeper ship to learn from. Y'all seem to base your assumptions on the idea that ship manufacturing and R&D is simply just a matter of credits; but that's a false reduction of a rather complex scenario.

Moreover Zoners stayed free and neutral because they wouldn't and couldn't harm anybody. You see when Zoners want a slice of the pie, there's less for everybody else. I.e. the summed up relative military might of say each Rheinland or Liberty Battleship decline for each Battleship Zoners or anybody else produce. No sovereign state can allow itself to let go of power just like that, without it having consequences. Think of real life and how weapons trade and military R&D is governed by international treaties and how states and nations get embargoed for violating those treaties whatever the intentions of the state might be - it's the exact same principle, the power hegemony is challenged and the major players have absolutely 0 interest in that.

Outcasts and Corsairs are luckily exempt from such factors because those powers that would take issue with their growth in military power are already at war with them; the downside also being that everyone shoots at Corsairs and Outcasts.

In short: It's naïve to think that Zoners can build and maintain a large and effective de facto warmachine (yes I know some Zoners like to call it "exploration vessels" or "colony ships" but let's call it what it is) and remain fully neutral.
[/Off-topic]

[n00bl3t]

Sugarcoat it under loving Discovery and addressing lore all you want, but if you cannot show why X faction should not be nerfed under the same logic as Y faction, then you have an issue with bias.

Because I don't think the conditions are similar for some of the other factions. Outcasts and Corsairs have been settled on planets for a long time, that requires a lot in terms of political structure, infrastructure, economy, educational system and other social structures. It requires a whole lot of coordination and unified goals. Both Crete and Malta are populated and have been so for a long time, although Outcasts are relatively speaking few in numbers. The Maltese even have a smashed sleeper ship to learn from. Y'all seem to base your assumptions on the idea that ship manufacturing and R&D is simply just a matter of credits; but that's a false reduction of a rather complex scenario.

Moreover Zoners stayed free and neutral because they wouldn't and couldn't harm anybody. You see when Zoners want a slice of the pie, there's less for everybody else. I.e. the summed up relative military might of say each Rheinland or Liberty Battleship decline for each Battleship Zoners or anybody else produce. No sovereign state can allow itself to let go of power just like that, without it having consequences. Think of real life and how weapons trade and military R&D is governed by international treaties and how states and nations get embargoed for violating those treaties whatever the intentions of the state might be - it's the exact same principle, the power hegemony is challenged and the major players have absolutely 0 interest in that.

Outcasts and Corsairs are luckily exempt from such factors because those powers that would take issue with their growth in military power are already at war with them; the downside also being that everyone shoots at Corsairs and Outcasts.

In short: It's naïve to think that Zoners can build and maintain a large and effective de facto warmachine (yes I know some Zoners like to call it "exploration vessels" or "colony ships" but let's call it what it is) and remain fully neutral.
[/Off-topic]

Actually, it's because Zoners are willing to trade and it's easier to pay and let Zoners take transportation risks of certain materials back into core space than it is to establish a base out there and fight off multiple pirates and nomads.

And I also recall some houses military leaders openly stating they do not care what goes on beyond their borders in the Omicrons.

And R&D coming from people who the Zoners are allied to doesn't count, but somehow Hessian alliances do. Makes sense.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[n00bl3t]

Zoner capitals exist using the same resource capability that Rheinland does, along with abundant resources in the edgeworlds and because they have no hardcoded enemies to setback their plans.

Zoner capitals exist using the knowledge and alliances of the GMG (quick refresher, fought Rheinland and has knowledge how to refurbish capitals) and The Order (most technically advanced organisation there probably is).

The alliance with the GMG also allows for fuel, and trading things found in the edgeworlds allows for maintaining capitals.

There's your RP.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Anaximander]

Where's house repercussions in all of this?

Where is the Zoner unrest? I mean if they wanted to turn away from House politics and go live for themselves out in the Omicrons, wouldn't some among the Zoners oppose the creation of a mighty warfleet as that inadvertently will drag them into House politics, whether they like it or not? It seems like a paradox, and Zoners deliberately setting themselves up to lose their own quest.

Wouldn't Samura have a slight problem with GMG suddenly getting a Battleship boasting ally when they used to be the only ones on the block with ties to that kind of military might? Why would they hand over a trump card like that without issue? Why not at least get Zoners barred from Kusari when they had the emperor in their pocket?

If the Zoner capships are based off terrorist Order designs, wouldn't Houses have noticed and wouldn't that have had diplomatic ramifications for Zoners? Wouldn't LSF, BDM, Kempeitei and so on have a great interest in knowing exactly how Zoners could arise as a genuine powerblock in such a short time; and wouldn't they have a great interest in knowing the scope of the Zoner production apparatus; wouldn't their job be to secure Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari and so on from possible future threats? If Zoners are able to perform such a mammoth feat in mere 20 years, wouldn't alarm bells go off at House government intelligence agencies? I mean in another 20 years, Zoners could be ready to take on Gallia and Liberty combined if they continue at the same pace.

Where are the consequences?

In my view, it could be possible (but not plausible) that Zoners got all them toys in such a short timespan, but it would have had a heavy price in terms of severed ties and loss of neutrality; it cannot be any other way when you build a warfleet like that. It totally disrupts the power basis, and everyone would look at Zoners in a very different light. Again, I'm not opposed to that or even opposed to Zoners getting their grand power backed up by lore; it should just be more nuanced and realistic. None of that neutral warfleet bollocks, it can't be done realistically.

So in short you can say I dislike the discrepancies between Zoner lore/diplomacy and Zoner presence in-game for the very same reasons that ppl dislike cat-girl fighter pilots and 12-year old space admirals. Even in fiction there are internal guidelines, rules and limitations for the imagination; otherwise we stop being able to relate to it and believe in it.

[n00bl3t]

Where's house repercussions in all of this?

Where is the Zoner unrest? I mean if they wanted to turn away from House politics and go live for themselves out in the Omicrons, wouldn't some among the Zoners oppose the creation of a mighty warfleet as that inadvertently will drag them into House politics, whether they like it or not? It seems like a paradox, and Zoners deliberately setting themselves up to lose their own quest.

Wouldn't Samura have a slight problem with GMG suddenly getting a Battleship boasting ally when they used to be the only ones on the block with ties to that kind of military might? Why would they hand over a trump card like that without issue? Why not at least get Zoners barred from Kusari when they had the emperor in their pocket?

If the Zoner capships are based off terrorist Order designs, wouldn't Houses have noticed and wouldn't that have had diplomatic ramifications for Zoners? Wouldn't LSF, BDM, Kempeitei and so on have a great interest in knowing exactly how Zoners could arise as a genuine powerblock in such a short time; and wouldn't they have a great interest in knowing the scope of the Zoner production apparatus; wouldn't their job be to secure Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari and so on from possible future threats? If Zoners are able to perform such a mammoth feat in mere 20 years, wouldn't alarm bells go off at House government intelligence agencies? I mean in another 20 years, Zoners could be ready to take on Gallia and Liberty combined if they continue at the same pace.

Where are the consequences?

In my view, it could be possible (but not plausible) that Zoners got all them toys in such a short timespan, but it would have had a heavy price in terms of severed ties and loss of neutrality; it cannot be any other way when you build a warfleet like that. It totally disrupts the power basis, and everyone would look at Zoners in a very different light. Again, I'm not opposed to that or even opposed to Zoners getting their grand power backed up by lore; it should just be more nuanced and realistic. None of that neutral warfleet bollocks, it can't be done realistically.

So in short you can say I dislike the discrepancies between Zoner lore/diplomacy and Zoner presence in-game for the very same reasons that ppl dislike cat-girl fighter pilots and 12-year old space admirals. Even in fiction there are internal guidelines, rules and limitations for the imagination; otherwise we stop being able to relate to it and believe in it.

I suppose I can eventually reconcile that your belief and Administrator allowance of catgirls/furries is the same situation that will allow Zoners to retain their capital ships.

Thank you for your time. (bow)

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Thyrzul]

Where are the consequences?

Sad to say but it this question pretty much sums up whole DiscoGC.

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[Knjaz]

In addition to what Anaximander said, a sudden appearance of a new power block between Corsairs and Outcasts, in the space contested by these 2 mini-Houses would force them to redirect their whole attention to Zoners, instead of fighting each other over control of Omicrons and Sigmas - and either attempt to use them in their neverending conflict, or get rid of them entirely as an entity that endangers positions of Malta and Crete. Most likely, both.

[Zen_Mechanics]

the threat of violence is in all diplomacy, no matter how warm the hand-shake or how charming the smile, infact without it we would barley be able to recognize each other, so there is no "peace" with zoners, zoners are valuable for them for the time being, but that doesn't mean they can be replaced in double quick time. Zoners are tougher than they appear.

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.

[Thyrzul]

the threat of violence is in all diplomacy, no matter how warm the hand-shake or how charming the smile, infact without it we would barley be able to recognize each other, so there is no "peace" with zoners, zoners are valuable for them for the time being, but that doesn't mean they can be replaced in double quick time. Zoners are tougher than they appear.

Again, you forget again that ZA is only a group of zoners and do not represent all of them at all. Due to this, you guys have way less significance in the Omicrons than you think you have. Corsairs, Outcasts, Core, Order, they can smash you any time they wish because if you are gone, there will be still Zoners left out there in the Omicrons (e.g. Phoenix, OSI) who can think rationally and conduct their diplomacy way better than you do. And while zoners overall may not be replacable, your group indeed is.

After a bit of thinking I came to the conclusion is that the issue with your way of thinking is that instead of earning your neutrality and proving your usefulness through diplomacy and various dealings, you started with claiming outright, unquestionable neutrality (without doing anything for it) and then answered with hostility to everyone trying to question that. And by my experience that is a common and recurring issue among the indie zoner populace.

And then claiming that a bunch of anarchists with a few warships on the edge of inhabited space are militaristically on par with the most high-tech paramilitary terrorist organization, two mini-houses and the largest bounty hunting organization across Sirius is outright incredible, stupid, nearing powergaming and is just worsening your situation.

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