But you are, people look up to you, your tags and want to impress you. You do have a resposibility.
Besides this isn't an order feedback thread, and what I said wasn't directed at you specifically. This is a ZA feedback thread that turned into a discussion about how stupid/silly/oorp ZA is, and I'm just commenting on the community treatment ZA is getting, which I think is out of line.
(06-26-2013, 10:49 AM)Jinx Wrote: personally - i do not think you act non-zonerish. - you also do not act outside the canon
May I ask you how "zonerish" or canon it is for a bunch of civilians deciding to live their lives in a harsh environment at the edge of civilized space to form a military? How "zonerish" is it that a group of people militaristically inferior to their surroundings (because yes, zoners basically are inferior when it comes to raw force) start to question a simple directive of their lore allies all other zoners have agreed upon ages ago, and then start a war because of it? How "zonerish" it is from a bunch of civilians presumed to be aiming at neutrality by diplomacy to refuse all negotiations until they are all decimated?
Or if it's only what the community thinks what zoners are, then please enlighten me oh all knowing Jinx, what is the real lore of the zoners?
a small zoner group having access to large amounts of cap ships(nephs/aquillons or whichever they are), when inRP they are hard to get a hold of, because there arent that many around and most fly with (mainly) zoner groups or very close allies, is absurd.
(06-26-2013, 11:11 AM)Anaximander Wrote: Thyr'zul, sorry to say this, but you seem to think like you've soaked up all the wisdom from Disco, but you haven't been around long enough to even begin to have a clue of how things are, how they were, and why. You seem to put all your faith in a system you like to portray as near perfect, when the fact is that it is deeply flawed in so many ways. Phoenix was being ridiculed to a point where they dropped their name to sort of start afresh. Nobody deserves that, not ZA either. I'm inclined to believe that if ZA had carried an official faction tag, you and many of those who are hysterically against ZA, would be on their side.
I have stated already in other threads of this forum that I based my concept of the Zoner lore on infocards, wiki stuff and mostly on how I've seen and experienced others playing out their zoners. My standpoint would still regardless of ZA being official or not if as officials they would have tried to pull the same stunt. It's not that they are indies, it's just that they need to count with the inRP consequences of their inRP actions. And now the consequences of turning everybody around them against themselves are that now everybody around them shoot them. It's just that simple.
(06-26-2013, 11:11 AM)Anaximander Wrote: "Factions going straight against their own lore" is debatable - I'd say some of the respected official factions do so as well, but get away with it. Moreover, Zoner lore is so holed that there's ample justification for a group such as ZA's. I mean is it so hard to imagine that groups of individuals with access to a wide range of military tools, no accountability and seemingly endless resources go on the offensive? What is and isn't "within lore" seems to be something we just decide on ourselves, and if you've got a tag, your opinion is the right one. You more or less said so in one of our previous discussions, and that take on it is extremely naïve
Holed or not, there are basic principles laid down in that Zoner lore, at least one of those to which so far I've seen only ZA not being able or wishing to adhere to.
"Today the Zoners and their reputation are famous throughout Sirius. Some might even say infamous, depending on their point of view. Zoners are still struggling to reconcile their political neutrality with their desire for individual freedoms..."
Note the word "struggling". I did not really see any struggling to achieve said neutrality in all the attempts of Tri_Urdent to defame his attackers and refuse many of the negotiation attempts, should it come from Order, Phoenix, TAZ...
That is one thing I do not agree with. Another thing, you are talking about - among others - "no accountability" and "seemingly endless resources". How so? Should they get away with whatever they do? No faction lacks accountability for their actions, the least could be expected from civilians living out in the edge of space trying to survive. And from where do these civilians have those "infinite" resources to be able to build up fortifications capable to lock down the whole system within weeks and withstand sieges for days? Where is the roleplay or the lore basis of it? What lore backs up their claim that they are on par with the Order, moreover challenge them and their authority in the Omicrons?
Well we do see eye-to-eye on what we would prefer Zoners to be, but when they can build 2 lines of cruisers and 2 lines of battleships in 20 years, who knows what other rabbits they can pull out of the hat? And they are unaccountable in the sense that they lore-wise are independent from one another, although their mammoth production feet certainly suggests otherwise. I mean a certain Zoner pride must arise from that feat, a certain feeling of being invincible or a feeling of succeeding against all the odds - that would be a fair premise for a militaristic megalomaniac group to arise. I'd be confused regarding the scope of my strength if I was a Zoner too, and perhaps overreach.
However ZA can say whatever they want to say. There once was a lonely pirate called Rorry who called himself King of Sigma-13, he didn't have any lore to back that claim either.
One thing you do say is that you get your opinions on what a Zoner should be based on how you experience other players play their Zoners - if you go back in history, Zoners have been played radically different than TAZ and other groups do these days. I hope you can understand how your MO is flawed? For you to form your opinions on what Zoners are from how people play them would require that you had total knowledge of how Zoners have been played by all players at all times. You should rather just say that you want Zoners to be the way a select group is currently playing them at the server.
(06-26-2013, 10:37 AM)MiniStryke Wrote: If you'd bothered to read my post, you'd notice that I didn't solely pin the lag on the ZA. What you're saying is exactly what I was referring to.
(06-26-2013, 08:37 AM)MiniStryke Wrote: Your actions to cure your boredom have resulted in a mess in O-74, your faction is the laughing stock of the whole server and you're doing nothing but ruining the game for others by causing ridiculous lag at peak times with your pointless fighting and breaking the Zoner ID itself.
Seems like you fully put the blame on ZA for it. Notice how "your faction" isn't plural.
(06-26-2013, 10:57 AM)Thyrzul Wrote: ZA pretty much deserves to be a scapegoat and to be blamed for their own actions after all what they did inRP and ooRP, but mostly inRP. It is hard to accept and like a faction going straight against their own lore, even more if leader of said faction metagames, powergames and then spams the violation report sub-forum with claims of metagaming. (Ain't is a bit hypocritical?)
That's just cruel. Noone deservers to be a scapegoat, and the fact you just said that proves my assumptions of there being out of roleplay hatred involved. By treating them like that, you disable any possibility for them to shape up in the way you want them to in the first place. After talking with Tri Udent on Skype, I can tell they're willing to settle things peacefully, but they simply aren't given the chance to, or they're prompted to make hasty decisions which tend to be against their favour.
The only thing you're going to achieve by this is the likely chance you'll just bully them off the server completely.
(06-26-2013, 11:11 AM)Anaximander Wrote: Phoenix was being ridiculed to a point where they dropped their name to sort of start afresh.
Twice even. They started as the Zoner Trade Consortium, tagged (]c[), went to the Omicroners, tagged (]o[), and now exist as the Phoenix Zoners. Tags might be a little bit off, it's been a while ago.
The way I look at it, mainly because of the strong military ship-line the Zoners have at their disposal for using. It was only a matter of time before some break-away military type zoner faction eventually surfaced, one that won't keep bending over, bowing down to every other faction whims telling them what to do. You can argue about their peace loving flower power lore, but things change over time.
And I think it's laughable the official zoner faction is asking ZA to remove their base from near that JH. Err, didn't they have a base near a JH also in Baffin that caused a lot of controversy until recently, because it killed everything on sight? Double standards or what!
(06-26-2013, 12:02 PM)Anaximander Wrote: Well we do see eye-to-eye on what we would prefer Zoners to be, but when they can build 2 lines of cruisers and 2 lines of battleships in 20 years, who knows what other rabbits they can pull out of the hat? And they are unaccountable in the sense that they lore-wise are independent from one another, although their mammoth production feet certainly suggests otherwise. I mean a certain Zoner pride must arise from that feat, a certain feeling of being invincible or a feeling of succeeding against all the odds - that would be a fair premise for a militaristic megalomaniac group to arise. I'd be confused regarding the scope of my strength if I was a Zoner too, and perhaps overreach.
Just because the already vague Zoner lore contradicts itself (independent civilians, who can build warships of several kind, something even several organizations fail to manage), that doesn't mean that this contradiction should be exploited. They are unaccountable in regards of the lore, but not in regards of their actions. If Zoners really possess the means of building up a huge fleet and this results in some kind of pride or sense of invincibility, as you suggest, then scrap that line from lore where it says they are aiming for neutrality. Because building up a huge fleet and posing as a potential threat before doing anything with that fleet is already frankly not a sign of aiming for neutrality. At least not on a peaceful way Zoner lore earlier suggested.
The shipline suggest the potential for a militaristic zoner faction, the lore, and the ID along with it suggest pretty much otherwise. As long as this contradiction stands, there will be issues with Zoner factions.
(06-26-2013, 12:02 PM)Anaximander Wrote: However ZA can say whatever they want to say. There once was a lonely pirate called Rorry who called himself King of Sigma-13, he didn't have any lore to back that claim either.
Did Rorry enforce his claim by locking down a whole system with invincible PoBs?
(06-26-2013, 12:02 PM)Anaximander Wrote: One thing you do say is that you get your opinions on what a Zoner should be based on how you experience other players play their Zoners - if you go back in history, Zoners have been played radically different than TAZ and other groups do these days. I hope you can understand how your MO is flawed? For you to form your opinions on what Zoners are from how people play them would require that you had total knowledge of how Zoners have been played by all players at all times. You should rather just say that you want Zoners to be the way a select group is currently playing them at the server.
I've seen TAZ playing out their stuff diplomatically, I've seen OSI dealing with various entities, they are alive and kicking to this day. I've seen OZ screw up their diplomacy with Core, resulting in Core sieging their only base, they are nowhere now. I've heard stories about that Asgard stuff, the Ori, mostly that they were kind of aggressive zoners too, not much I've heard, but even that little in negative context, like who told me condemned their actions. None of them are here today. I've heard Omicroners trying to seal off O74, just like ZA does now, resulting in bad blood, and that half of them left the server, other half remained here, reorganized under a new name, new policies, new diplomacy. Phoenix, in it's renewed form, is alive and kicking. And then there is still the difference between Omicroners and ZA, that the former did not have the PoBs, pretty much invulnerable and powerful entities, to enforce the lockdown to this extent.
I based my view of the Zoner Way on how the current and old factions played it out, as their survival is pretty evident to me that they barely made any mistakes compromising themselves, and did not derive from the path ensuring their neutrality and respect.
(06-26-2013, 12:47 PM)Potter Harry Wrote: That's just cruel. Noone deservers to be a scapegoat, and the fact you just said that proves my assumptions of there being out of roleplay hatred involved. By treating them like that, you disable any possibility for them to shape up in the way you want them to in the first place. After talking with Tri Udent on Skype, I can tell they're willing to settle things peacefully, but they simply aren't given the chance to, or they're prompted to make hasty decisions which tend to be against their favour.
The only thing you're going to achieve by this is the likely chance you'll just bully them off the server completely.
What is the ooRp hatred in my words when I say they are at fault for what they have done, and that they have to face the consequences of their own actions, like everybody else? They have every opportunity to end this conflict, they had these opportunities since start, they also even had their chances to prevent it completely. They did not wish to do so up until they got outgunned to an extent they were not able to defend anymore. Then they had peace with their surroundings, for how many days exactly? It didn't take too much time for them to start their next war. After this, I really cannot take them seriously, but if they really wish to end this now, they still got their chances. They know the terms, only a decision is what has to be made.
If the whole will end up with them leaving the server, they will be as faulty in this result as their surroundings.
Somehow I think you are too keen to pull "ooRP hatred" on everybody opposing something you decided to defend. Often I fail to see it's basis, or the reason behind it as I suspect there is barely any, other than the wish to play the devil's advocate. Well, by my experiences Anaximander is better at that for sure.
@GTB
Don't mix Phoenix with TAZ. No double standards, just two entirely different factions with two entirely different cases. Barely comparable.
(06-26-2013, 08:52 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: Phoenix are not the only one who is official, and be official or not, zoners should not attack other zoners, at best they need to help them. The phoenix itself is a laughing stock, all other factions tried to help the za while they were trying to to meddle them. Trust me I've been close to them enough to see they have flaws. This does not mean za is clean, but from my reckoning they allowed this oorp none-sense to go on. Even the order turned a blind eye, just hope for your sake that they will not be capped as well.
To be honest I didn't want to make a comment in the thread, but this post needs some rectification.
Tel, no need to distort the truth. The Phoenix tried to help the ZA - in and ooRP as well - for a tons of time when the first problems occured, even when I couldn't read or hear anything from you or your faction but the Phoenix is the lapdog of Order, we are not true Zoners, etc. If I remember well, we only asked you to remove that fake Livadia Shipyard and told inRP to not mess up your reputation with everybody in the Omicrons, which could have bad consequence for us too. You didn't listen, didn't care about and ignored your so-called Zoner brethen.
And when you became the victim of trolling and who knows what else you are wondering that we requite your ignorance in the whole situation? I don't think that it's surprising since you gained a lot of antipathy from several players and characters. You think we should risk our diplomacy stance with everybody for a group who hates us? Or a group who plays here for a long time, still doesn't know the rules about engagement, ooRP system chatting? I'm really curious about your opinion how the Phoenix should have acted in this case.
(06-26-2013, 08:52 AM)Tel-Aviv Wrote: Phoenix are not the only one who is official, and be official or not, zoners should not attack other zoners, at best they need to help them. The phoenix itself is a laughing stock, all other factions tried to help the za while they were trying to to meddle them. Trust me I've been close to them enough to see they have flaws. This does not mean za is clean, but from my reckoning they allowed this oorp none-sense to go on. Even the order turned a blind eye, just hope for your sake that they will not be capped as well.
To be honest I didn't want to make a comment in the thread, but this post needs some rectification.
Tel, no need to distort the truth. The Phoenix tried to help the ZA - in and ooRP as well - for a tons of time when the first problems occured, even when I couldn't read or hear anything from you or your faction but the Phoenix is the lapdog of Order, we are not true Zoners, etc. If I remember well, we only asked you to remove that fake Livadia Shipyard and told inRP to not mess up your reputation with everybody in the Omicrons, which could have bad consequence for us too. You didn't listen, didn't care about and ignored your so-called Zoner brethen.
And when you became the victim of trolling and who knows what else you are wondering that we requite your ignorance in the whole situation? I don't think that it's surprising since you gained a lot of antipathy from several players and characters. You think we should risk our diplomacy stance with everybody for a group who hates us? Or a group who plays here for a long time, still doesn't know the rules about engagement, ooRP system chatting? I'm really curious about your opinion how the Phoenix should have acted in this case.
Yes, you have tried to assist them, but in a useless way, and judging the time it took you guys to join in this fight, it was pointless right from the start. You should have supported them, not to tell them to stop, while the AIS started this war, I call it "hyporctics" and I say so only inRP ( no means to offend ) - you were quick to blame them but not the AIS, I wonder why.