If we talk about changing the RP of Zoners in harmful way:
I personally find ZA more in-RP faction then the OSI Zoners for example.
Moving ores in whales in Sirius house space is so much Zoner and very in RP indeed....
I guess all house corps are also Zoners by this logic.
Quite fitting in the Zoner Lore and canon for sure- but as long as the proper skype friends and official status are present -the flock of sheep would never say that their ID and Faction is total stupid and OORP right? Sadly too many kids around prefer to be lousy lapdogs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep#Flock_behavior
Check this and compare it with your actions- you would be amused. When the Alpha male says or does something you follow- not because he is right just because he is the Alpha male: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_man_%28anthropology%29
The Big Man and his followers.
In this line of thoughts:
It is interesting what would happen if ZA makes all zoners that want to be neutral to the station neutral using the forum like all other factions do.
I never saw Mollys or Hessians complaining about being red to Molly or Hessian stations- there are proper RP channels if one refuse to use them it is his problem, official or not.
ZA made such channel as far as I am informed. The rest is as Jinx said bandwagon and double standards- both plagues in this community.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
why do i think that the ZA has not left canon? - easy - canon says that firstly - zoners are very diverse. in terms of discovery - it means they are what is left when you subtract the pirates, the bounty hunters, the idealistic saviours of humanity and the aliens from what dwells in the outer rim.
here is an example of a perfect Zoner:
Andrew Ryan, late ruler of Rapture
you might try to bend your mind around that character, which is by no means a pacifist. - he left his country for the following reasons:
- unrestricted creativity
- limitless research, including unethical research
- escaping the the state that wants to control, wants to know everything about you
- be truly independent
- be out of sight - gone - vanished ... hence, under the sea ( thats not really a coincidence there )
- find a community of like minded people
in my opinion - this bioshock character is a true "zoner" through and through.
strangely enough, you can apply much of Bioshock to Zoners. - maybe not all of course, because it is still a different universe - but maybe it derails your idea of Zoners just a bit.
And what you see in Bioshock is just what happens when the social bonds start to loosen. ( or if you don t like pop culture that much - you can also always read the Lord of the Flies )
It is also a strange thing - that people who seek to live outside of the society, isolated, with their own laws - tend to be very defensive - and also tend to hoard tons of weapons ... "for self protection of course" - its a funny little aspect.
now - with that said - it does not mean that the ZA has not had a disruptive effect on the conservative diplomacy in the omicrons - but i would NOT call it ooRP or non zonerish.
i think you d be naive for sticking so singlemindedly on your idea of what the faction must be like. - you can express that you do not like what they do - but that is different from saying what they do is non canon.
4.82 canon:
zoners deploy juggernaut ships to protect what is theirs ( theta ) - a ship that looms forcefully and threatingly over zoner interests - ready to smite those that oppose them. - THAT is established zoner lore.
Here's another question: why does all the onus get put on the ZA for the conflict, when the Order could just as easily rescind their demands and aggressive attitude towards ZA and also end the conflict diplomatically? Why is nobody taking note of that, but just hating on ZA because they are incapable of forcing their assumed idea of Zoner RP on them? IMO, that's the fault of whoever let them build the base in the first place, not on the ZA.
If you're going to give someone you don't entirely trust power, then you had better make sure you have more power if you plan to take that power away in the future. Obviously Phoenix didn't think that through, and they are facing the InRP consequences of that decision.
If anything in this seems OORP to me, its that other Zoners would side against a Zoner faction and actively attack them instead of either A) staying neutral or B) trying to actively mediate a ceasefire/truce. Now, obviously some groups are trying option B, but they apparently are simply not good diplomats (despite how good of an RPer they think they are)
Why Order would want to refrain from murdering ZA in 74 if they have no desire to comply with not even single point we've gave them? There is no other way other than announce failure - which considering Order's size to Zoner's - is illogical INRP.
(06-26-2013, 03:16 PM)Jinx Wrote: why do i think that the ZA has not left canon? - easy - canon says that firstly - zoners are very diverse. in terms of discovery - it means they are what is left when you subtract the pirates, the bounty hunters, the idealistic saviours of humanity and the aliens from what dwells in the outer rim.
Question is how much of them are living out in the edge of space and how concentrated they are. How cooperative are they? (Because you know, diversity barely eases that.)
(06-26-2013, 03:16 PM)Jinx Wrote: here is an example of a perfect Zoner:
Andrew Ryan, late ruler of Rapture
you might try to bend your mind around that character, which is by no means a pacifist. - he left his country for the following reasons:
- unrestricted creativity
- limitless research, including unethical research
- escaping the the state that wants to control, wants to know everything about you
- be truly independent
- be out of sight - gone - vanished ... hence, under the sea ( thats not really a coincidence there )
- find a community of like minded people
in my opinion - this bioshock character is a true "zoner" through and through.
Starting a war with all of their surroundings, that's barely something to do in case they want to "be out of sight". I highly doubt our example of perfect zoner Andrew Ryan would have done the same as what the ZA did.
(06-26-2013, 03:16 PM)Jinx Wrote: strangely enough, you can apply much of Bioshock to Zoners. - maybe not all of course, because it is still a different universe - but maybe it derails your idea of Zoners just a bit.
And what you see in Bioshock is just what happens when the social bonds start to loosen. ( or if you don t like pop culture that much - you can also always read the Lord of the Flies
I'm not entirely familiar with Bioshock characters, neither have read Lord of the Flies yet. But I'd rather stick to DiscoFL characters, who actually exist in this universe. I hope you understand.
(06-26-2013, 03:16 PM)Jinx Wrote: It is also a strange thing - that people who seek to live outside of the society, isolated, with their own laws - tend to be very defensive - and also tend to hoard tons of weapons ... "for self protection of course" - its a funny little aspect.
From what I got, zoners aren't really isolated, only ventured far to live away from the houses, get out of their bureaucratic grasp, but they still have neighbors to make contact with. Defense is a key of survival, but so is diplomacy. Why defend yourself with guns first if you have the words for it... if those fail, you can use the guns, but words, if used well, can prevent pointless bloodshed on both sides. So far zoners seemed to be expert at that, minimizing the need for guns.
Also, I'm curious from where these civilians, living outside of the society would acquire the sufficient resources, manpower and organization required to maintain a fleet rivaling the military might of the mini-houses. How did mere civilians escaping the houses manage to build up a force in 20 years or so up to the point they could think of threatening the Order with war if they don't let them research nomads for whatever reason they would have and then think they can get away with it?
(06-26-2013, 03:16 PM)Jinx Wrote: now - with that said - it does not mean that the ZA has not had a disruptive effect on the conservative diplomacy in the omicrons - but i would NOT call it ooRP or non zonerish.
i think you d be naive for sticking so singlemindedly on your idea of what the faction must be like. - you can express that you do not like what they do - but that is different from saying what they do is non canon.
4.82 canon:
zoners deploy juggernaut ships to protect what is theirs ( theta ) - a ship that looms forcefully and threatingly over zoner interests - ready to smite those that oppose them. - THAT is established zoner lore.
Any more detail on that? Numbers? Costs of construction? From where do they get their resources and manpower? What are those so called "zoner interests" these caps intend to defend? Are zoners so interested in Nomad research they are ready to wage war just to defend these "interests"? Also, "ready to smite those that oppose them", I was not aware zoners were this aggressive, how come the ID doesn't reflect that? How come it permits only self defense for them?
Please, help me get rid of this "single-minded" way of thinking.
I'm not saying the Order SHOULD end the conflict, especially if it isn't in their best interest. I just don't understand why all the OORP annoyance, anger, malice, etc. seems to get solely directed at the ZA, other than simply assuming this is just Q_Qing on a grand scale because ZA can't be controlled in RP.
(06-26-2013, 04:27 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: simply assuming this is just Q_Qing on a grand scale because ZA can't be controlled in RP.
"We have no means to remove the bases by force, lets try to troll a bit and use other possible methods"
Yep- this is it.
Thyrzul - I advice you to stop your ship and lower your shield next time when one attacks you,observe the result carefully and imagine that you are ZA zoner acting properly as described by you. Then you might get rid of your single-minded way of thinking. This is what the majority of this community require from ZA as it seems- to disable their base defences and act like there is no base.
Since I play around I haven't seen much this course of action by any players if we exclude empty transps that refuse to pay and I shoot their turrets off- they act like that they stop and wait to get killed in order not to re-buy their turrets. They RP with "Kill me pls" kind of RP. Why you require ZA to act like that?
The nomad remains bullshit and simular kinds of Lampoon self serving RP is part of the trolling and other possible methods.
In before ZA I never heard or saw Order ships shooting zoners ships/bases for possessing nomad remains may be I am wrong so if it is please do show evidence since I does not fly much around this space recently.
However I got shot in corsair ships by Order for farming nomads in nomad systems so may be they have shot their zoner ally as well who knows?
If so do provide screens/comms/loggs so the general public like me might find the Order reaction logical and justified in RP.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Im not rely clear what was the reason to begin the war but i dont see any reason for the order to go to a zoner guard
system and claim something. after all is a zoner guard system. is like back when sair and order was ally and order come to a sair guard and making demands.
(06-26-2013, 04:27 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: I'm not saying the Order SHOULD end the conflict, especially if it isn't in their best interest. I just don't understand why all the OORP annoyance, anger, malice, etc. seems to get solely directed at the ZA, other than simply assuming this is just Q_Qing on a grand scale because ZA can't be controlled in RP.
Actually ZA could be controlled inRP to an extent, but that is a decision up to Phoenix, whether they want to use their official faction rights or not and of course up to the Admins, who review their request and accept or deny it.
What I can imagine about all the ooRP hatred being directed towards ZA, one reason could be the bases themselves, granting them power through game mechanics which by no means would they have inRP. And they decided to abuse that power, resulting in the lockdown of O74. Base sieges also tend to lead to ooRP stuff too.
Another reason could be the leader's hypocritical actions lately. There have been metagaming and powergaming attempts from ZA side, such as inRP reports about The Order containing data they couldn't have ever acquired (e.g. Order-Council relations), as well as the infamous boarding attempt, where the ZA tried to take over Livadia shipyard with marines boarding the station, and tried to back it up with in-game screenshots. Again, game mechanics to prove an inRP point. And then after all of this, there have been several accusations from ZA side towards the rest about metagaming.
I hope I gave a clear answer.
EDIT:
(06-26-2013, 04:35 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: Thyrzul - I advice you to stop your ship and lower your shield next time when one attacks you,observe the result carefully and imagine that you are zoner. Then you might get rid of your single-minded way of thinking.
I really see no relation between my way of thinking and imagining I am a zoner while doing that nonsense. If you could enlighten me about the relevance of the two to eachother, I would be glad.
(06-26-2013, 04:35 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: The nomad remains ***** and simular kinds of Lampoon self serving RP is part of the trolling and other possible methods.
The directive been there way before the ZA started to deal with nomad material without the consent of the Order, and has been agreed upon by all of the Zoner factions prior to ZA generating sh*tstorm. It shouldn't have taken too much effort to actually pay attention and ask Order prior to dealing with those materials. If lately the whole is really used for trolling, well, they asked for it.
Are you suggesting Zoners should not be able to build PoBs all together, or just not ZA? Where is the RP justification that Zoners can't accumulate wealth or resources to build a base ? what are all those zoner Whales for otherwise?
that seems like something you should be talking to the admins and developers about, not whining about ZA. and going to the admins to complain about something you cannot fix in game is not in RP, btw.
as for the ham fisted RP attemps re garding Lividia, that I see your point on and agree. poorly planned RP? yes. does it justify all the ooRP malice? not in my opinion