Zoners

[Druen78]

Not really. All these different kind of factions just add to the diversity of Zoners. CW should be official too, the more diversity we have the better it is.

Diversity doesn't need officialdom, though. Every one of those factions could be able to do their stuff without official status.

Edit: Fixed, sorry ^^'

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I don't seed a signature.

[Sabru]

Not really. All these different kind of factions just add to the diversity of Zoners. CW should be official too, the more diversity we have the better it is.

Diversity doesn't need officialdom, though. Every one of those factions could be able to do their stuff without official status.

Quote fail. Thyrzul said that, not me XD

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[Trogdor]

Oh look, a whole thread devoted to making fun of me and my opinions. And wouldn't you know, almost all of the Zoner haters have shown up - we'd just need Haste to complete the set. Fortunately I have most of them on ignore, which makes it easier for me to pick out others who may have valid points that I may debate.

1) We have a Zoner shipline. Ignore the capitals for a moment - the fact that we have a shipline, -Zoner- ships at all, suggests a level of unity and cooperation that it is unreasonable to expect from the model of loosely-connected individuals that you people champion. Plus, the Whale -requires- you to be a Zoner - this makes no sense if a Zoner is just a Freelancer who 'made a lifestyle choice'.

2) We don't need to be like the Freelancers, or like the Junkers. We already have those, they're called the Freelancers and the Junkers. And even the Junkers, as spread out and diverse as they are, have a central congress.

3) Yes I'm aware of the VR and the Natio Octivarium. I'm also aware of the RoS. They're all trying to do the same thing - create another house, that is based on personal freedom, equality, a lack of corruption, etc. They are trying to create utopias.
You guys cling to the idea that the Zoners left the houses because they just straight-up hate houses. There is no evidence to support this, and much evidence to support the opposite. Despite how much the Zoners love their freedom and independence, they still settle down in cooperative communities, and those communities still cooperate with each other (they must, otherwise sharing a non-civ shipline makes no sense. Who did the R&D to design these ships, and who funded it? And now how is it that all the rest can use and maintain these craft?).

4) Druen, I think it is you who has a distorted view of the spirit of the original NPC faction.
If you truly wished to go with the loosely-connected Freelancer model of Zoner, you would have to strip away everything that makes the Zoners interesting.
First of all, they probably wouldn't have been able to get enough people together to even take over the abandoned bases that later became Freeports... Let alone build any NEW stations. Where did Freeport 9 come from?
Our shipline would not exist.
OSI would not exist. There wouldn't be enough capital flowing, nor captains cooperating, for it to get off the ground, let alone function as it does currently.
TAZ would not exist. Your lore borders on the absurd (which is probably intentional, and if you had not started a thread to mock me, I would not be judging) But look at this. http://discoverygc.com/wiki/TAZ#History You guys started out with a single dude, and somehow got enough people together and built up enough money to buy a system in just 2 years? Really? You call my ideas ridiculous but this is apparently perfectly fine.
And, well, the Omicroners and Phoenix wouldn't exist for reasons that should be obvious.

Or, we could NOT totally upend the faction (and possibly the server along with it).. and if some group wants to attempt to carve out a chunk of Sirius for the good of all, why not? Why are you guys stomping all over this idea? What do you have to lose if it happens?

Is it the cow shaet about the Zoner POWAGH again?

Man, make Freeports into Freelancer bases and remove zoner caps so they stop that

While we're at it, remove those silly 'sairs. I don't play that faction, so as far as I care, it's worthless and can be nerfed back to the stone age.

Or you can go worry about your favorite faction (which isn't doing so well, it seems) and let me worry about mine.

In fact I proposed changes to the Zoners that would HELP YOU.

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[tyro]

Zoners are people who want to be free from the oppression of Houses. To achieve this, they left the systems houses and lived in abandoned by others stations.

These are the energetic and enterprising people (only they have the courage to go beyond the safe space of Houses). They are active, they do businesses.
Some of them may create companies , and even large corporations , organizations or factions. The organization must have headquarters. Stations unprofitable for corporate houses, can be sold or abandoned, and consequently occupied by the zoners. Station needs someone to manage. Hence, political structures and administration among the zoners .

Risky trade with everyone could be also very cost effective. Living in a dangerous systems they need suitable ships and weapons. Rich people or stations may have its own armed forces. Thus is a way to colonize entire systems and dreams of their own power. People seeking the good life come to Zoners continously, since houses lead pointless wars and restricting civil liberties.

I am writing this to show that zoners are not homogeneous group of vagabonds smoking weed in stuffy rooms of their ships and freeports. There are some, but they are also entrepreneurs, politicians, soldiers, engineers, doctors, bandits, smugglers.

Because they are independent individuals, I do not think that they are willing to subject to the power greater than the government of a station. Hence, thinking about the House of Zoners is a delusion.

Other way, we can not forget that life in freeports creates a certain emotional bond with the inhabitants of other freeports. These are common interests, friends, family, a sense of community. So if one of the freeports will be threatened, others will support it. If independence one of freeports will be threatened others will be afraid of the same thing and scream about that, and even fight about it. Of course this bond is limited by self-interest. Zoners are complicated.

Thinking about Zoners House is just as pointless as thinking, the zoners are not a faction.

[Echo 7-7]

Zoners have communities, yes, but each Zoner community is independent; for example, the politics of Freeport 9 have no connection whatsoever to Freeport 5, despite the inhabitants of both stations identifying as Zoner. There is no one Zoner above all that the others must obey, and no single party determining the direction of all Zoners, for that is antithesis and anathema.

Independence does not mean that there cannot be cooperation, such as that required to manage the Zoner shipline. Zoner shipbuilders may operate similarly house corporations, but instead of a formal showroom where products are marketed, they may only build for private orders, or only sell to those who've been given a letter of recommendation (or similar) by someone else they trust.


Edit: Tyro's post above is also saying something similar, but somewhat more poetically.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Trogdor]

Zoners have communities, yes, but each Zoner community is independent; for example, the politics of Freeport 9 have no connection whatsoever to Freeport 5, despite the inhabitants of both stations identifying as Zoner. There is no one Zoner above all that the others must obey, and no single party determining the direction of all Zoners, for that is antithesis and anathema.

Independence does not mean that there cannot be cooperation, such as that required to manage the Zoner shipline. Zoner shipbuilders may operate similarly house corporations, but instead of a formal showroom where products are marketed, they may only build for private orders, or only sell to those who've been given a letter of recommendation (or similar) by someone else they trust.


Edit: Tyro's post above is also saying something similar, but somewhat more poetically.

I did not say that such a house would have a 'ruling' government. Even if we did set up a government, it would be just like the old Council - the Council never demanded anything of anyone. The Zoner Council simply debated and then determined 'this is the best course to take'. Whether or not people actually followed the wishes of the Council was entirely up to them. No one was ever arrested or kicked out for not following 'orders'.

The house would simply be a system(s) with a big pile of Zoners in it, at the edge of Sirius, preferably containing our shipyard and a habitable planet. The combat (especially capital) ships would then have an indelible function - defend home. No one would need to tell them to do this, it would be up to each individual captain to do it out of a sense of duty. This is how my Zoners operate.

Then, give us some commodities to haul that encourage some pirate faction(s) to raid the Zoners, and you'll have activity in that system. No FR5s, the pirates may live near another Zoner station that doesn't want to become a target. Handle the raiders with defenders and bounties.

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[Cælumaresh]

Since the FP7 thread was being hijacked, lets shift the stuff to here.

Who owned them before? Neutral NPCs (Therefore, the whole faction).

ಠ__ಠ

Identifying as a Zoner indicates subscription to that particular lifestyle, not a hierarchically structured organisation with unified asset management.

If that were true, what justifies the 'Zoners' having ships of their own at all? Why would we have "Zoner" fighters, let alone transports and capital ships and faction-specific guns? And even if they did, would make their tech any less ubiquitous than civ or borderworld tech?
You make the Zoners sound a lot like Freelancers. Less interesting Freelancers. And this scares me because you, being on the dev team, have the capability to completely ruin this faction that I enjoy so much. :B

I think roleplaying a faction that's trying to become its own house, one based on freedom and equality, is much more interesting, and so this is what I push for. Furthermore, the tech (which I'm grateful we still have) makes more sense my way.

I think roleplaying a faction that's trying to become its own house, one based on freedom and equality, is much more interesting, and so this is what I push for.

a faction that's trying to become its own house,

become its own house

wait, wut?

Only one answer is possible for all this:


ZONERZONERZONER

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This Galaxy is vast; its wonders and beauty are almost unfathomable. But the galaxy also hides dark secrets, some of which have lain dormant since the beginning of time itself. There is a danger in secrets, both in seeking and in knowing. Some things are meant to be hidden from view. Some mysteries defy understanding, and sometimes even the things we think we know are untrue. Some secrets should remain untouched.

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

[Curios]

Oh look, a whole thread devoted to making fun of me and my opinions. And wouldn't you know, almost all of the Zoner haters have shown up - we'd just need Haste to complete the set. Fortunately I have most of them on ignore, which makes it easier for me to pick out others who may have valid points that I may debate.

dat zoner way of taking criticism

/thread

1) We have a Zoner shipline. Ignore the capitals for a moment - the fact that we have a shipline, -Zoner- ships at all, suggests a level of unity and cooperation that it is unreasonable to expect from the model of loosely-connected individuals that you people champion. Plus, the Whale -requires- you to be a Zoner - this makes no sense if a Zoner is just a Freelancer who 'made a lifestyle choice'.

This is hilarious. Clearly giving zoners a shipline was a mistake. It was assumed that the features provided for the factions would be used with logic, caution and respect. What a mistake, ship line is not something that is pushing the RP. Those enhancements that were done to Zoners are now paying us back with assumptions like this.

2) We don't need to be like the Freelancers, or like the Junkers. We already have those, they're called the Freelancers and the Junkers. And even the Junkers, as spread out and diverse as they are, have a central congress.

So... the Zoner RP w\o ships\bases is same as Freelancer or Junker RP? Do you really sure what RP actually is?

3) Yes I'm aware of the VR and the Natio Octivarium. I'm also aware of the RoS. They're all trying to do the same thing - create another house, that is based on personal freedom, equality, a lack of corruption, etc. They are trying to create utopias.
You guys cling to the idea that the Zoners left the houses because they just straight-up hate houses. There is no evidence to support this, and much evidence to support the opposite. Despite how much the Zoners love their freedom and independence, they still settle down in cooperative communities, and those communities still cooperate with each other (they must, otherwise sharing a non-civ shipline makes no sense. Who did the R&D to design these ships, and who funded it? And now how is it that all the rest can use and maintain these craft?).

VR and RoS are not canon factions. Zoners is a major canon society.

4) Druen, I think it is you who has a distorted view of the spirit of the original NPC faction.
If you truly wished to go with the loosely-connected Freelancer model of Zoner, you would have to strip away everything that makes the Zoners interesting.
First of all, they probably wouldn't have been able to get enough people together to even take over the abandoned bases that later became Freeports... Let alone build any NEW stations. Where did Freeport 9 come from?
Our shipline would not exist.
OSI would not exist. There wouldn't be enough capital flowing, nor captains cooperating, for it to get off the ground, let alone function as it does currently.
TAZ would not exist. Your lore borders on the absurd (which is probably intentional, and if you had not started a thread to mock me, I would not be judging) But look at this. http://discoverygc.com/wiki/TAZ#History You guys started out with a single dude, and somehow got enough people together and built up enough money to buy a system in just 2 years? Really? You call my ideas ridiculous but this is apparently perfectly fine.
And, well, the Omicroners and Phoenix wouldn't exist for reasons that should be obvious.

Ahem. Freeport average population is around 100-150 people. One hundred and fifteen people. It's easy to get together with little bunch of guys. Zoners are very small faction in fact, just well spread.

Or, we could NOT totally upend the faction (and possibly the server along with it).. and if some group wants to attempt to carve out a chunk of Sirius for the good of all, why not? Why are you guys stomping all over this idea? What do you have to lose if it happens?

OH WOW, yea. That argument has finally arrived. Now I can rest in peace.

Is it the cow shaet about the Zoner POWAGH again?

Man, make Freeports into Freelancer bases and remove zoner caps so they stop that

While we're at it, remove those silly 'sairs. I don't play that faction, so as far as I care, it's worthless and can be nerfed back to the stone age.

Or you can go worry about your favorite faction (which isn't doing so well, it seems) and let me worry about mine.

In fact I proposed changes to the Zoners that would HELP YOU.

u wot m8te

I'm not playing Corsairs for... hm, years? And actually removing caps is a nice move, for any faction - if factions will begin to loose caps I'll be happy no matter I'm part of it or not.

Also zoners becoming a house? How that tardness is going to help anyone in any way? No idea - it's usual claim w\o any logical basis. "BECAUSE I THINK SO IT'S RIGHT"

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[Druen78]

4) Druen, I think it is you who has a distorted view of the spirit of the original NPC faction.
If you truly wished to go with the loosely-connected Freelancer model of Zoner, you would have to strip away everything that makes the Zoners interesting.
First of all, they probably wouldn't have been able to get enough people together to even take over the abandoned bases that later became Freeports... Let alone build any NEW stations. Where did Freeport 9 come from?
Our shipline would not exist.
OSI would not exist. There wouldn't be enough capital flowing, nor captains cooperating, for it to get off the ground, let alone function as it does currently.
TAZ would not exist. Your lore borders on the absurd (which is probably intentional, and if you had not started a thread to mock me, I would not be judging) But look at this. http://discoverygc.com/wiki/TAZ#History You guys started out with a single dude, and somehow got enough people together and built up enough money to buy a system in just 2 years? Really? You call my ideas ridiculous but this is apparently perfectly fine.
And, well, the Omicroners and Phoenix wouldn't exist for reasons that should be obvious.

I suppose you chose to misinterpret my words into me supposedly saying that there should be no Zoner factions and that Zoners should be freelancers. Which I totally never said, not even thought at all. All I said is that there shouldn't be Zoner OFFICIAL factions, because the concept itself doesn't make sense. Zoner factions shouldn't own systems or bases (except player bases because, well, they build those themselves), and there shouldn't be situations like currently in Magellan, where the relationship between Gallia and TAZ is influencing also every indie or unofficial Zoner getting caught in the mess.
I have nothing against Zoner factions, but they shouldn't be official, and shouldn't own anything except their ships, because that's now how being a Zoner works (and yeah, I played Zonerzonerzoner a lot in the past).

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I don't seed a signature.

[Trogdor]

[quote='Trogdor' pid='1450821' dateline='1386927610']
Oh look, a whole thread devoted to making fun of me and my opinions. And wouldn't you know, almost all of the Zoner haters have shown up - we'd just need Haste to complete the set. Fortunately I have most of them on ignore, which makes it easier for me to pick out others who may have valid points that I may debate.

dat zoner way of taking criticism

/thread
[/quote]

Did you read the OP? Yes, clearly that was criticism. How silly of me.

1) We have a Zoner shipline. Ignore the capitals for a moment - the fact that we have a shipline, -Zoner- ships at all, suggests a level of unity and cooperation that it is unreasonable to expect from the model of loosely-connected individuals that you people champion. Plus, the Whale -requires- you to be a Zoner - this makes no sense if a Zoner is just a Freelancer who 'made a lifestyle choice'.

This is hilarious. Clearly giving zoners a shipline was a mistake. It was assumed that the features provided for the factions would be used with logic, caution and respect. What a mistake, ship line is not something that is pushing the RP. Those enhancements that were done to Zoners are now paying us back with assumptions like this.

Oh, I'm sorry. Clearly, discussing ways in which we can move the faction lore forward, and the justification upon which we can base that progression, is a waste of forum space, and I should be ashamed of myself. I'm so, so sorry, Curios. -_-
Must...restrain...frothing...rage.

2) We don't need to be like the Freelancers, or like the Junkers. We already have those, they're called the Freelancers and the Junkers. And even the Junkers, as spread out and diverse as they are, have a central congress.

So... the Zoner RP w\o ships\bases is same as Freelancer or Junker RP? Do you really sure what RP actually is?

No. People in previous posts were likening Zoners to Freelancers, and I'm saying no, we're not. Sorry if I didn't make it clear what I was contesting, there.

3) Yes I'm aware of the VR and the Natio Octivarium. I'm also aware of the RoS. They're all trying to do the same thing - create another house, that is based on personal freedom, equality, a lack of corruption, etc. They are trying to create utopias.
You guys cling to the idea that the Zoners left the houses because they just straight-up hate houses. There is no evidence to support this, and much evidence to support the opposite. Despite how much the Zoners love their freedom and independence, they still settle down in cooperative communities, and those communities still cooperate with each other (they must, otherwise sharing a non-civ shipline makes no sense. Who did the R&D to design these ships, and who funded it? And now how is it that all the rest can use and maintain these craft?).

VR and RoS are not canon factions. Zoners is a major canon society.

Oh. I'm glad we agree that Zoners are a major society. However I'm not sure how you can say that VR and RoS are not canon, when they have people roleplaying them and the RoS has the Cayman system and the bases in it. (Their defunct status notwithstanding.) I was drawing a comparison between those groups and the Zoners, because the Zoners could both fill the system the RoS left behind, as well as their primary goal of creating a utopian house/Zoner pile.
[quote]
[quote='Trogdor' pid='1450821' dateline='1386927610']
4) Druen, I think it is you who has a distorted view of the spirit of the original NPC faction.
If you truly wished to go with the loosely-connected Freelancer model of Zoner, you would have to strip away everything that makes the Zoners interesting.
First of all, they probably wouldn't have been able to get enough people together to even take over the abandoned bases that later became Freeports... Let alone build any NEW stations. Where did Freeport 9 come from?
Our shipline would not exist.
OSI would not exist. There wouldn't be enough capital flowing, nor captains cooperating, for it to get off the ground, let alone function as it does currently.
TAZ would not exist. Your lore borders on the absurd (which is probably intentional, and if you had not started a thread to mock me, I would not be judging) But look at this. http://discoverygc.com/wiki/TAZ#History You guys started out with a single dude, and somehow got enough people together and built up enough money to buy a system in just 2 years? Really? You call my ideas ridiculous but this is apparently perfectly fine.
And, well, the Omicroners and Phoenix wouldn't exist for reasons that should be obvious.

Ahem. Freeport average population is around 100-150 people. One hundred and fifteen people. It's easy to get together with little bunch of guys. Zoners are very small faction in fact, just well spread.

Wait a minute, you just said the Zoners were a major society. However you're right in that those numbers would have to be inflated to coincide with the direction I'm trying to nudge the faction towards.
Also I'm not sure where you're getting 'FP avg pop is around 100-150'. Several are that low, but others are far higher.
Bethlehem - 600
FP1 - 2000
FP2 - 850
FP6 - 800
FP15 - 700
Porto Novo - 5000
Boa Vista - 3000

imo ~100 people is not enough to run anything but the tiniest station (FP5 maybe)

We would need to grow our numbers as part of the lore. That doesn't seem like something that should be too difficult to justify.

Or, we could NOT totally upend the faction (and possibly the server along with it).. and if some group wants to attempt to carve out a chunk of Sirius for the good of all, why not? Why are you guys stomping all over this idea? What do you have to lose if it happens?

OH WOW, yea. That argument has finally arrived. Now I can rest in peace.

By all means. Don't let me stand in your way.

Is it the cow shaet about the Zoner POWAGH again?

Man, make Freeports into Freelancer bases and remove zoner caps so they stop that

[quote='Trogdor' pid='1450821' dateline='1386927610']
While we're at it, remove those silly 'sairs. I don't play that faction, so as far as I care, it's worthless and can be nerfed back to the stone age.

Or you can go worry about your favorite faction (which isn't doing so well, it seems) and let me worry about mine.

In fact I proposed changes to the Zoners that would HELP YOU.

u wot m8te

I'm not playing Corsairs for... hm, years? And actually removing caps is a nice move, for any faction - if factions will begin to loose caps I'll be happy no matter I'm part of it or not.
[/quote]

Go play vanilla. Caps are a big draw to the mod.

Also zoners becoming a house? How that tardness is going to help anyone in any way? No idea - it's usual claim w\o any logical basis. "BECAUSE I THINK SO IT'S RIGHT"

How about a little respect? You can disagree with my arguments without being rude. Or at least, some people can.

Btw, speaking of 'usual claim w/o any logical basis "BECAUSE I THINK SO IT'S RIGHT"', how's that "Discovery 2.0" project of yours going?

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