(01-05-2014, 07:50 AM)Remilia Scarlet Wrote: Now let's see. Treewyrm pushed out an interesting idea thro. So let's take POBs away from anyone and reward the possibility of building one to the official factions only with following limitations
Uh, nope, what I meant was that specialized upgrades, based on faction profile, i.e. navies get military/research base upgrade paths, mining corporations get miner/refinery upgrade paths, trading factions get upgrade path with benefits related to trading I suppose. And a generic base would be still available to everyone.
Mimir, many official factions may place an emphasis on smaller ships, but the reason people like me are looking for something like exclusive capship access for official factions is because it would allow official factions to fulfill their role.
Take the [LN], a faction I have the most experience with. We have the Anchorage, the Durango, the Cloverfield and the Maryland. As far as I remember, these four battleships represent the core battleship force in the faction, where the latter three represent its realistically deployable armour (nobody really fights in the Anchorage). There would be more, but there's no reason for it, because you can barely fight in the battleships, and other smaller capships, within the faction.
The fights are usually taken by indies on both sides of the lawful divide, more often than not piling in willy-nilly. That's their right currently, but it ruins some snubfights and severely unbalances others. During my tenure with Joe as the Fleet Admiral, I found myself using these capital ships more often as deterrants to capship indies of either side, to prevent them from severely disrupting a small-ship fight.
I literally used these ships as vessels to police fights, not to actually fight myself. That's their routine purpose now - it is a rare day when these ships are actually deployed in genuine aggression. They're continued to be used this way as their primary purpose - we simply can't fly around in them, because there's too many already.
As for Spiritar's accusation that disco is a medieval society.... I present you the recent riots and demonstrations in the developed world countries where normal people say "we are the 99%". This implies the existence of a ruling elite whose power stems from excessive wealth. My point - the world is like this, not just disco. Accusing discovery of being some social backwater is silly, its just a reflection of how society works and has always worked. You're right, fighting against it is pointless. Better to join it instead, lest you find yourself part of the 99% of oppressed workers, and not the 1% of the ruling elite.
Maybe exclusive capital ships isn't the answer. I don't know what is.
Somebody said earlier that they didn't believe cosmetic items alone would be acceptable, but I disagree. People spend just as much on purely cosmetic items in free to play games as they do on items that actually affect performance. The problem is the volume of data that this would add to the mod. Duplicates of countless ships for many factions, each changing when a faction becomes unofficial and another takes its place sounds... tedious. Furthermore, a lot of effort has gone into keeping the size of the mod low.
I do believe official factions need something. For somebody like me, whether it happens or not wont discourage my participation in my chosen official factions, but it does affect others. Official factions put an awful lot into the game and provide a lot of structure - all the laws you see, the structure that gives people the certainty about their actions ingame, was provided by official factions. All they ask for is a bit of respect for the amount of work they put in, something which has abjectly failed to materialise through my years here.
Indies put things into the game too. Some roleplay, some do it well. Not all indies are bad, but the ones who listen, understand and provide response are outnumbered and outgunned by those who do not. Furthermore, being an indie means that you have made no commitment to actually do anything constructive. Being an official faction member, however, means you're making that commitment, and submitting yourselves to the judgment of those higher in the hierarchy.
What tangible reward do they get for that commitment? Legitimacy? Respect? Faction members are, more often than not, shown neither. This wasn't the case a long time ago, but the nature of discovery is that it changed from a small village where everybody knew each other and new arrivals could be integrated, to a city, where nobody really knows each other because there are too many people.
Faction members have sacrificed their freedom just by their action of joining the faction. When every indy player asks "what have you done to deserve my respect?", it's just frustrating. The presence of factions, relative institutional stability and the formation of rudimentary laws and regulations in different parts of space? What about commissioning somebody to make a cool new ship for the mod? How about trying to advance their factions diplomacy, storyline progress and relative strength in the pixel universe? What about all the work that goes into effectively managing what constitutes an actual labour force, where the motivational tool required is not money as a real job, but fun. Where labour is provided voluntarily, through interest and entertainment?
Forgive me if I look down on indies, but I think the vast majority of them have done sod all compared to their respective official factions. Some of them date back several mod versions. The [IND], which doesn't even have to deal with many of these issues, dates back to before I joined the server.
I already earned my place here, I wont be proving the legitimacy of my place to anybody. Nor should factions be expected to do the same. They earned it already.
@Katherine:
I read Mimir post and he didn't come with a solution or an idea. All he did was bashing official factions for being lazy and unpopular but not even a suggestion on how they could become popular. I've seen people like this for years coming and going... hell, I've been one of them, bashing official factions for God knows what but never coming with a solution.
I've also read jinx post and I got to tell you that, as an indie player, those things he proposed would not attract me at all. Maybe point C.
WALL OF TEXT
Have you guys played F2P MMOs lately? I played World of Tanks a lot. I'm gonna describe their Clan System for those who are not familiar with it. In WoT there are 2 currencies: silver (credits) and gold.
You get silver for fighting in random battles and you use it to buy modules, ammo, tanks, all kinds of stuff.
You get gold if you pay real money, if you win contests or if your clan holds provinces on the global map. With gold you can buy premium tanks that are better at certain aspects that don't make them overpowered and don't break the gameplay; with gold you can buy garage slots for more tanks or you can buy premium account that lets you advance quicker.
Now, the global map is a browser application that lets you move tanks on some territories and attack other provinces. Once you initiated an attack on the browser map, you'll get a battle in game, with the owners of the said territory.
The thing is that last year, Clan Wars was loosing popularity and many players were complaining that there's not "end game achievement". The competition was stagnating because all the top clans were allied on the map, they had lots of gold in their pockets and they were getting bored.
So, the devs had a problem (similar to what we have here): Clans were losing interest. Everyone was playing random battles (indies!). Some clans tried to start wars with huge alliances involved but they were wiped out pretty fast.
Now, what did the devs do? They came up with all kinds of events and competitions and included them in Clan Wars. Now, the clans had to attack provinces all the time if they wanted to stay the best and get the rewards. The reward was another ton of gold (they already had tons), unique medals (interesting for some) and an unique tank (while it wasn't exactly the most useful
tank, it was a tier 10 -> max level -> battleships in FL and it was fricking unique! as in, only the best in the campaign would have it).
Now, let's take all that and translate it into Disco and our current situation:
Our "clans" have activity problems because they're bored. They already have everything that you can hope to have in this game. Same goes for indies. They also have everything and new players, new indies can have everything pretty fast.
Organizing "campaigns" in different systems where more events would shape the future of the lore is what I propose for official factions leaders and the admin team. For example: Gallia vs Bretonia - Battle for Leeds System
Event 1 - Setting the stage
In this event, Gallic trade factions will have to bring X amount of stuff to Y base. Bretonian trade factions will have to bring X amount of stuff to Z base. Teams can register a max of two 5k transports, and 5 additional ships, up to bomber class. The team that delivers the materials first, wins the upper hand for future events. Make their routes intersect at some point and see what happens. They can ambush the opposition, they can risk it all on speed and cargo capacity with only a scout. There are all kinds of variables that can be modified. Event 2 - First encounter, scouting parties
In this event, each team (BAF and GRN) will have to fly 6 light fighters and one gunboat, meet at some coordinates and blast their heads off. The battle will take 20 mins. How do you win?
a. Defeat the enemy in 20 mins;
b. If both teams are still fighting after 20 mins, the team with more ships standing is the winner;
c. If the enemy retreats, you won. Now, why would my team retreat? Well, if you retreat you get to use your ships in the final battle. If you don't, all the ships that took part in this event, won't be able to take part in the final event. Event 3 - supplies for frontlines
Another trade event. In this one trading factions have to supply their armies with stuff. The routes will be sent to pirate factions to wtfpwn the convoys. The team that reaches the destination gets to add cloaking or jumping (fuel) to their capital ships during the final battle. The convoys will be made of 5 transports (not 5kers) and 7 support snubs, up to GB. The pirates will bring one transport and 6 support snubs. The odds are not in favor of the pirate faction and they shouldn't be lore-wise. If the pirates manage to steal supplies, they get to use cloak or jump in the next events of this campaign. Event 4 - random skirmish
As repercussion for the pirate attacks, the navies decide to send in a small force to deal with them. 7 vs 7 system and teams get to choose their set up, without knowing what the enemy will bring (fog of war). If navies win, they won't be attacked by pirates during the final battle. If pirates win, navies are screwed during the final battle because they'll have their behinds drilled by those scums. Event 5 - final battle
Set-up: partial known vessels, partial fog of war
Participants: depending on past events: Navies, pirates, possibly trade factions security wings.
Duration: 1 hour
Known vessels: each navy can bring one Carrier/BS/Dread (depending on what they have available), two smaller caps as support (Destroyers/Light Carriers/Cruisers) and 5 ships up to gunboats. The pirates can bring a wing of 3 snubs, up to GB class.
Unknown ships: whatever they have docked on those caps.
The battle: will take place at set coordinates. Snubs will fight snubs at first, they will not target the caps! Capital ship captains have the final word if they launch their support ships or if they keep them in reserve. Don't forget that it's possible that the pirates will attack you if you lost Event 4 or if you didn't take part. If a team of snubs obliterated the enemy team, they can move on the cap, with support from their own capital ships. So, caps are only watching for the most part of the battle. They are the coordinators. Now, keep in mind, that a lost capital remains lost for the official faction and re-building it would take time (say... one month) so that's why you have the opportunity to bail out if you can. You can retreat and save your ship but the territory you were fighting for is now lost to the enemy.
This is my idea and if I'd have the time I'd love to organize something like this but I don't... Now, I think that this would give the official factions an edge without taking anything from indies (I'd still like to restrict some caps )
Also, the idea can be extended to include the strategic position that a POB may have in a system, as in... if you're attacking the capital system of a house, you'll have to bring your caps and fight around one of their POBs, giving the defender the home terrain advantage. There are countless opportunities that can be exploited and organizing events like this should bring activity and new members for official factions.
Oh and the big picture would be like this: This week, we focus on this campaign, next week, we go have a look at order vs bhg vs order, next week, we organize liberty vs rheinland, next week, we organize colonials vs kusari or gallia and so on, giving time to factions to do something else in the rotations and attend to their POBs or whatever their RP projects are. We don't want to keep them busy only with Campaigns.
McNeo Wrote:I already earned my place here, I wont be proving the legitimacy of my place to anybody. Nor should factions be expected to do the same.
McNeo Wrote:They earned it already.
That's the main problem..right there..it all comes down to those very last words..
Why shouldn't they keep working to maintain what they earned and not just think they are self entitled to more than others?
This attitude needs to be changed..
People want to believe that God has a plan for them.
They don't wanna believe that anyone else does..
I would like to point another issue that I think that hasn't been mentioned. It's not directly related to official factions but it has something to do with.
Wearing a tag; For me this is the key to generate RP. In a game where there are more systems than players, the player list in game is essential if you want to have interaction. Some examples;
8 random names in Magellan don't rise too much supsicious, on the other hand 4 [LN] tagged ships plus 4 [GRN] ships do. A couple of names in Tau23 it's ok, add an IMG tag before that names and the system will become populated in some minutes with haulers trying to buy ores, outcast trying to pirate and reavers & hunters making their "bussiness". And so on ...
Now with this in mind, let's analyze 3 kind of situations;
Official factions, Unnoficial factions and Indies:
Official factions
Tag: Yes
RP consequences of their actions: Yes.
Notes: Their are recognized in player list, their actions has consequences thus it adds value to a Roleplaying server.
Unnoficial faction Players
Tag: Yes
RP consequences of their actions: Yes
Notes: Their are recognized in player list, their actions has consequences thus it adds value to a Roleplaying server. On the other hand they have no "faction rights" so in my opinion is the worse situation to play with. The unnoficial factions are here because 2 main factors; A. As a process to do an official faction, B players feeling that join official factions is too restrictive but that want to have a common tag ( ship restrictions, level of RP required, forum stuff ...)
Indies
Tag: No in most cases, "unknown by comunity tags" if they wear one in most cases
RP consequences of their actions: Low or none at all
Notes: Not wearing a tag means been almost invisible in server, only the players you encounter directly will have a chance to RP with you. That means a loss of interaction chances to both tagged and not tagged players. Additionally they have not much consequences of their RP.
Well, at this point I'm not sure if I have put all the things in my mind in the correct order, but let's continue...
What if everyone would have to wear a tag?
Those not belonging to a faction would wear their ID tag in the player list. That would mean that a part of "not taking consequences" would be reduced and that every one would be recognized in the server list improving the chances to generate encounters and thus RP ... Additionally it reduces the factions handicap in front of indies without the need of giving buffers to factions (I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm saying that this add on would reduces differences without the need of it)
How this could be done?
I would add a tag parameter so the names would be composed by [tag] + [Name]
By default a player without a tag defined will have the tag equal to it's ID.
On the other hand the tag parameter would be only defined by factions after receiving the approval of an admin and would be password protected.
Well, nice add-on but how this would improve the factions?
Once you're wearing a tag, you become visible in space, in a dangerous space i would add. Uh, i'm a lonely trader flying across Omegas and wearing a tag... good luck! Oh my.. i'm just a lonely pirate in Liberty... will meet you in Sugarland baby!
Yes, once you're recognized by the server population you need to tag along to have chances to survive in a dangerous space...
Ok, now that you're in need of company, where you will head to find a solid and quite big group of players, and if it's possible organized ones?!
Didn't read all the walls od text, so sorry if someone mentioned this, but how about giving official factions unique IDs....
For example: Official police factions could get unique ID that allows them to lock out stations/planets/lanes/gates.....This will create better RP imersion and differentiate official police factions from indies and military factions.....
And before you say it is opened for abuse, I say not cuz official factions have strict rules about this....I have spoken to a few people and this would be possible to code....I think that would greatly help solving the problem official police factions have in terms of numbers....
This is just one idea regarding police factions, let me know what you think about it, I have some for other official factions as well which I will share later...
The locking of planets and gates has been suggested quite a few times and sadly the prospect of abuse, even by those in official factions is considered to be too great to risk.
I can see this thread spiralling towards a pointlessness so lets just remind ourselves why this is being done.
We are not trying to steal away stuff from indies, we're trying to promote a sense of community in the form of official factions. Like them or not those factions serve an important function, they represent the various happenings of the story and as a secondary function they generate better RP by teaching new players.
Therein lies the rub, independent players are for themselves, faction players follow their factions RP.
Jinx's original post was simply about having more transparent involvement of all players in how Discovery progresses as a mod, plus some ideas about how to let players participate more and customize more.
If you're for that, you should say you're for that and why.
If you're not, try to state your reasons for why it would NOT be a good idea to let actual players have more of an impact on the Disco storyline. Also, why it would NOT be good to give faction members more of an ability to exercise their faction rights, and why it would NOT be good to be able to choose a new ship skin for your existing craft.
I see a lot of responses in this thread from folks who are mad, have been mad and are gonna stay mad.
I have seen a lot of OTHER ideas proposed, ideas that should probably be in their own threads, not this one.
Quite honestly, I've seen a lot of fatalism and suppressed rage-- focused on the devs "not doing anything, ever", focused on the POBs, focused on cap ships, focused on FR5s, focused on boredom, etc.
I don't care who said this stuff. This is not a back-and-forth. I am just sharing an observation.
All in all, I think what Jinx proposes is something good-spirited and open. More access, more involvement, more options.
tl;dr
I think Jinx's ideas are sound and should be implemented-- at the very least as a test run to see if more transparency and invitations to have a voice and be involved in decision making will make an impact on the attitude of the player base.
And if the texturers on the dev team are cool with developing ship skins, why not? Its just duplicating a few shiparch entries, changing one line and, of course, DAYS of work on a texture and mat file.
A very good well though out post Jinx my compliments.
I didn't read all the posts, only the first one so if this has been mentioned, my bad.
My ideas on this are.. as for the factions having more power, I don't care either way, what ever make everyone happy.
Your "C" point... I couldn't agree more, I'll be honest, If I cant fly what I want in a faction, I simply will not join, many cases Ive PMed first to see if I could use the ship I possessed and was told no, so I remained a indie.
The problem with factions with the pyramid system, is there boring for anyone not at the top... and in most cases, the leader and other members that are at the top are not going anywhere, so those levels are pointless to a normal player. Many of the factions restrict caps and many of the fun ships to play for themselves at the top or it takes a LONG time to ever gain the ability to fly what you want.
Many Faction leaders will never willingly give up that power to have the best ships in the faction, which to me at least, makes them irreverent to how I like to play. To make them less stagnate, a vote of existing members should (say every month or so) vote for a new leader, that would at least shake things up, and would be allot funner for players that don't have a chance in hell of ever being in the top tiers.
Though you hit on this, I think that if a player wants to fly a ship they want, say a cruiser for example, they should have say a VHF and Bomber as well in the faction.. and be willing, when the leader cammands, to fly those ships. It could be setup as follows:
Wants a Gunboat / (Must have one snub in faction)
Wants a Cruiser / (Must have 2 snubs in faction)
Wants a Battleship / (Must have 3 ships in faction, say 2 snubs and a transport)
Or whatever, something like that. Currently the factions are too restricting for players that are just here to have fun flying what they want (and earned credits for) to fly. That was fine when you have to wait in line to get on the server because there was always 225 players online, but now, in order to involve everyone, and to let them enjoy themselves (so they stay longer then a week or two) change is in order.
The problem is that the long time prominent members will probably not like this (as there the ones on top and have the most influence) I actually posted on this somewhere in some thread (about allowing indies have at least SOME influence on the storyline) and it was utterly ignored. (At least it was last time I checked it)
That's my 2 cents anyway and I don't think it will go over well, but hey its JMO and nothing more.
I'm perfectly fine playing indie ships or joining factions that don't restrict all the fun ships, Like .:j:. for example whom I'm a member of, they don't care what you fly, so I'm happy with them.
Now, I think that this would give the official factions an edge without taking anything from indies (I'd still like to restrict some caps 
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