Total Peace? Ew!

[Thyrzul]

I'll be replying in color within the quote.

2. Corsairs (Omegas) - Rarely engage rheinland

[...]

- In order to fight enemies, you first need enemies that are willing and capable. Not a bunch of factions that rarely even enter your space.

Make Sairs to shoot at then? I myself made a character to join the GRN when they were not around for my Council boys to be shot at. But oh, look. There they are.

- People who talk about changing things are bad!

Ironic sarcasm from somebody agitating against changes of past. I dare say it's quite hypocritical.

but why only events? it's so stale. all the pro's can show up to play one side for one hour, and we'll be back to the same situation of daily stuff going one way, but lore and events dictating something else.

Pros can show up even if it's not an event, that's pretty much the issue here. If you let the differences in gaming skills of each individual decide the outcome of major storyline events, then Liberty would have been crushed by a single mercenary company, the Reavers Merc Co., ages ago, and similar sillyness would have happened elsewhere too. That is exactly why even events are rarely a tool of deciding how the story goes. The game is not designed to allow players to represent the actual inRP strenght and numbers of navies properly, it's too restrictive in some aspects and then too allowing in others. Unless that happens, it's better leave the story to be written and then played out, not the opposite.

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[Mímir]

But pro's don't show up consistently. I think those that log their ships all the the time, the 5th, the RNC deserve a heavier weight in this. That is the whole point, at least in my view.

Use your imagination. Would Reavers really go and ask for NY to become Reaver City? And would admins really go for it? I do think we can use - some - common sense. That's why I proposed a fluid system, even though partially unfair.

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[Thyrzul]

I would rather trust developers with the fate of my faction than pvpwhores (and eventually try to have influence on them...). Though at the same time I agree that Liberty should get some beating already, but of course that doesn't mean Rheinland can forget their losses and the need to recover, or magically respawn their fleet out of thin air like how it goes by game mechanics.

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[TLI-Inferno]

I would rather trust developers with the fate of my faction than pvpwhores (and eventually try to have influence on them...). Though at the same time I agree that Liberty should get some beating already, but of course that doesn't mean Rheinland can forget their losses and the need to recover, or magically respawn their fleet out of thin air like how it goes by game mechanics.

No, only liberty can do that, right? It's totally understandable to say that rheinland should be weak from its conflicts, but Liberty shall stand firm! Even though it was losing nearly every battle of the war, let's go ahead and say rheinland suffered too many losses and can't fight the almighty house of liberty!

Sure. Let admins arbitrarily decide the outcome with the in-game roleplay (and pvp) having no impact whatsoever. Sounds like a great idea.

That's the problem with the community, and, to be honest, the entire world.

You act like everything has to be black or white. You say you don't want PVPwhores determining the entire game, and so players should have no impact on the lore whatsoever. You don't seem to realize that there's plenty of space in between for administrators to simply write lore appropriately based on what's happening in-game.

Obviously players won't have the power to change how the jumpgates operate, etc; those sorts of things have to be done by administrators. So you don't have to worry about reavers suddenly taking new york or gaians suddenly taking ile-de-france. The administrators make the changes, so they would still have the power to moderate; I'm simply suggesting that they write the lore to at least somewhat resemble the way things are actually happening in the game, since the lore's supposed to be the story of the server, not a random novel that has nothing to do with it.

Nobody here is asking to have single battles determine the outcome of the entire server. We're just saying... When a certain faction has been winning a war for years, it's absurd to write into the lore that they're losing, and to force them to retreat out of the systems.

[Ryummel]

I wonder what the situation would be nowadays if LN caps had been as noob-friendly as RM caps from the beginning.

inb4 people denying the latter lol

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[TLI-Inferno]

I wonder what the situation would be nowadays if LN caps had been as noob-friendly as RM caps from the beginning.

inb4 people denying the latter lol

LN caps have been incredible for a very long time (except for the carrier, which has been drastically improved).

I've flown almost every ship in the game, I know their strengths and weaknesses. Liberty caps were great. Admittedly, the rheinland cruiser pre-nerf was great and would beat a liberty cruiser anyday, but that's because the liberty cruiser wasn't made to fight other cruisers. The liberty cruiser is definitely not noob-friendly; it takes a skilled pilot to turret steer and still make effective use of its forward gun. However, the other liberty ships are very user-friendly.

The Liberty gunboat, LABC, and liberty dreadnaught, however, have been great for a long time.

The real reason rheinland kept beating liberty is that every newbie starts in liberty and decides they want to buy a liberty battleship. They save up for it, buy it, and then don't have a clue how to use it.

Ironic sarcasm from somebody agitating against changes of past. I dare say it's quite hypocritical.

I don't oppose every change; just the harmful ones. I advocate the majority of changes I see made.

Also, voicing your opinion on something, and insulting the person who proposed it, are two completely different things. There's nothing wrong with being opposed to a change or supporting a change; what's wrong is insulting people just because you disagree with them.

[Ryummel]

The real reason rheinland kept beating liberty is that every newbie starts in liberty and decides they want to buy a liberty battleship. They save up for it, buy it, and then don't have a clue how to use it.

And since you've acknowledged "the real reason", then you should be insisting in your proposal of changing the starting point for newbies anywhere else but Liberty, instead of claiming this House being "overprotected by devs".

---

[Thyrzul]

You say you don't want PVPwhores determining the entire game, and so players should have no impact on the lore whatsoever. You don't seem to realize that there's plenty of space in between for administrators to simply write lore appropriately based on what's happening in-game.

I never said such things I underlined so I kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth. Not wishing to put the fate of my faction(s) into the hands of pvpwhores doesn't mean I don't think player interactions shouldn't affect the lore, quite the contrary, but apparently not to the extent you may like to. But that doesn't mean I view the whole scene only black and white.

Instead of player skill being a decisive factor, I'd like to see player-made decisions pushing the overall story forward, but for that to completely happen without any problems, silliness we'd require responsible players, dare to say, adults, else the storyline could easily collapse under chains of events concluded from irresponsible decisions and their consequences. That is the reason I am not against the developer team pulling the most significant strings of the overall storyline.

I'm simply suggesting that they write the lore to at least somewhat resemble the way things are actually happening in the game, since the lore's supposed to be the story of the server, not a random novel that has nothing to do with it.

And what exactly do you want them to take into consideration? Activity and representation? Junkers are the most actively played faction while Kusari is god damn dead ooRPly, how would it look like if an inRP supposedly alive house would ban a few smugglers and then wouldn't be able to enforce it simply because of asymmetric representation? Or should we consider the whole of Kusari extinct?

Player skill? Let's say a pvpwhore who's more skilled than you approaches a RM (or BDM) squadron of yours on his lone freelancer fighter, it's like 5v1, but he manages to pop at least 3 of you before fleeing (if not all of you), would you want it to be considered inRP? I can already see the inRP news headers, "Rheinland officials can't even deal with civilians, how can we expect them to protect us from Liberty?". (Note: The choice of faction/house was arbitrary, you are free to insert LN/LSF/Liberty/Rheinland or BAF/BIS/Bretonia/Gallia, etc.) Or even better, Exiles raping RNS indy Valors with bombers, because there are more expert players in there than among the gallic indies. Pretty credible, isn't it?

Decisions? I'm all up for it, of course to the extent I already stated above. But make sure you can find players enough responsible for the decisive positions of a faction to survive. Oh wait, I almost forgot that we don't have to fear factions dying to eachother because of inRP consequences because every time somebody feels losing they can pull the "powergaming" card, the aces of aces, and escape responsibility and consequences. That move is pretty much designed with irresponsible people's irresponsible decisions in mind. Is this really the game we want to play?

Nobody here is asking to have single battles determine the outcome of the entire server. We're just saying... When a certain faction has been winning a war for years, it's absurd to write into the lore that they're losing, and to force them to retreat out of the systems.

The difference is that they have been winning battles in-game, but not inRP. Sure I applaud the Rheinland side for learning to organize themselves in fleet battles, but that doesn't mean that both sides were equally properly represented. RNC was closer to how a navy might work like, LNS wasn't, but the sad fact is that the game just won't even allow us to properly represent numbers, skill, tactics, decision-making abilities, experience. For that we need a different engine, more mature minds, and in general more players.

---

[TLI-Inferno]

You say you don't want PVPwhores determining the entire game, and so players should have no impact on the lore whatsoever. You don't seem to realize that there's plenty of space in between for administrators to simply write lore appropriately based on what's happening in-game.

I never said such things I underlined so I kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth. Not wishing to put the fate of my faction(s) into the hands of pvpwhores doesn't mean I don't think player interactions shouldn't affect the lore, quite the contrary, but apparently not to the extent you may like to. But that doesn't mean I view the whole scene only black and white.

Instead of player skill being a decisive factor, I'd like to see player-made decisions pushing the overall story forward, but for that to completely happen without any problems, silliness we'd require responsible players, dare to say, adults, else the storyline could easily collapse under chains of events concluded from irresponsible decisions and their consequences. That is the reason I am not against the developer team pulling the most significant strings of the overall storyline.

I'm simply suggesting that they write the lore to at least somewhat resemble the way things are actually happening in the game, since the lore's supposed to be the story of the server, not a random novel that has nothing to do with it.

And what exactly do you want them to take into consideration? Activity and representation? Junkers are the most actively played faction while Kusari is god damn dead ooRPly, how would it look like if an inRP supposedly alive house would ban a few smugglers and then wouldn't be able to enforce it simply because of asymmetric representation? Or should we consider the whole of Kusari extinct?

Player skill? Let's say a pvpwhore who's more skilled than you approaches a RM (or BDM) squadron of yours on his lone freelancer fighter, it's like 5v1, but he manages to pop at least 3 of you before fleeing (if not all of you), would you want it to be considered inRP? I can already see the inRP news headers, "Rheinland officials can't even deal with civilians, how can we expect them to protect us from Liberty?". (Note: The choice of faction/house was arbitrary, you are free to insert LN/LSF/Liberty/Rheinland or BAF/BIS/Bretonia/Gallia, etc.) Or even better, Exiles raping RNS indy Valors with bombers, because there are more expert players in there than among the gallic indies. Pretty credible, isn't it?

Decisions? I'm all up for it, of course to the extent I already stated above. But make sure you can find players enough responsible for the decisive positions of a faction to survive. Oh wait, I almost forgot that we don't have to fear factions dying to eachother because of inRP consequences because every time somebody feels losing they can pull the "powergaming" card, the aces of aces, and escape responsibility and consequences. That move is pretty much designed with irresponsible people's irresponsible decisions in mind. Is this really the game we want to play?

Nobody here is asking to have single battles determine the outcome of the entire server. We're just saying... When a certain faction has been winning a war for years, it's absurd to write into the lore that they're losing, and to force them to retreat out of the systems.

The difference is that they have been winning battles in-game, but not inRP. Sure I applaud the Rheinland side for learning to organize themselves in fleet battles, but that doesn't mean that both sides were equally properly represented. RNC was closer to how a navy might work like, LNS wasn't, but the sad fact is that the game just won't even allow us to properly represent numbers, skill, tactics, decision-making abilities, experience. For that we need a different engine, more mature minds, and in general more players.

So, essentially what you're saying is "I don't care which faction was winning the war, I want liberty to win so bam they win."

Why can't the lore simply adjust to how the server flows? If rheinland is winning the war in reality, what's wrong with having them win in the lore? Is it really so detrimental to even consider the possibility that liberty doesn't have to always win everything?

The administrators writing lore are essentially writing the history of the server. They don't need to include every lolwut gankfest, but the story they're telling could at least somewhat resemble the actual story of the server. At this point they're basically throwing away everything that's ever happened, writing the opposite, and saying "this is what happened, because this is how my liberty friend wished it had happened."

The real reason rheinland kept beating liberty is that every newbie starts in liberty and decides they want to buy a liberty battleship. They save up for it, buy it, and then don't have a clue how to use it.

And since you've acknowledged "the real reason", then you should be insisting in your proposal of changing the starting point for newbies anywhere else but Liberty, instead of claiming this House being "overprotected by devs".

I've already mentioned the issue of everyone starting in liberty by default in other threads. It's not a new issue; people have been talking about it for years.

But you need to expand the capacity of your brain for a moment. What you don't seem to realize is that it's actually possible for one problem to have multiple causes. Just because I state that one particular thing is a cause, does not mean that another thing I also stated as a cause can't also exist as an issue.

For an example (hopefully) everyone can understand, take a look at World War II. One massive issue, many causes.

Or, on a smaller scale. Let's say you get shot in the chest. It doesn't kill you. You get shot in the ribs. It doesn't kill you. You get shot in the leg. It doesn't kill you. After getting shot a dozen times, you bleed out and die. You can't try to make the assertion that just because one shot was harmful, that the others weren't.

[Ryummel]

The real reason rheinland kept beating liberty is that every newbie starts in liberty and decides they want to buy a liberty battleship. They save up for it, buy it, and then don't have a clue how to use it.

And since you've acknowledged "the real reason", then you should be insisting in your proposal of changing the starting point for newbies anywhere else but Liberty, instead of claiming this House being "overprotected by devs".

I've already mentioned the issue of everyone starting in liberty by default in other threads. It's not a new issue; people have been talking about it for years.

But you need to expand the capacity of your brain for a moment. What you don't seem to realize is that it's actually possible for one problem to have multiple causes. Just because I state that one particular thing is a cause, does not mean that another thing I also stated as a cause can't also exist as an issue.

For an example (hopefully) everyone can understand, take a look at World War II. One massive issue, many causes.

Or, on a smaller scale. Let's say you get shot in the chest. It doesn't kill you. You get shot in the ribs. It doesn't kill you. You get shot in the leg. It doesn't kill you. After getting shot a dozen times, you bleed out and die. You can't try to make the assertion that just because one shot was harmful, that the others weren't.

You got me doubting for a moment about my comprehesion capacity, actually.

I mean, in the post above you address a "real reason" that, in my understanding (and some other's who I asked in case I was the one deluding) is "the only cause" or at least the "main cause" for this one problem being debated.

And now in your next reply you tell me that other causes you appointed previously have the same weight as "the real reason of Liberty being the starting point of newbies"? I'm sorry but I think you slipped a tad bit by telling me "to expand the capacity of my brain".

Go make a sandwich so that you recover energies after arguing with Thyr (sometimes it's tiresome, I know) and then try telling me what is/are and what is/are the main cause/s of the Liberty problem for real.

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