T&T/ Tinker&Transport Information and Feedback

[FynnMcScrap]

PS I'm sure Rob will make his own statement when he returns home later.

Nope, actually not. As I see no point in it.

Thank you for the information.

I will continue working the base and the faction, and will continue to work on the RP that surrounds it with the same care and purpose as if the faction had been awarded official status. And will continue to ask for player requests or use the other possibilities to be a productive faction and do constructive RP.

A pity we do not get the recognition I would hope to get,
and the opportunity to ask for the perks I would like to get set.

Greets
Rob

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FynnMcScrap, Foreman of Tinkers Haven

[jammi]

This seems absurd. The faction rules were relaxed to allow multiple groups to inhabit the same NPC faction (which doesn't even appear to be the case here anyway), so surely groups should be judged on their own merit and not the quantity of groups involved?

Either approve or turn them down based on their own actions, or formally amend the ruleset to prevent multiple groups in the future. Telling them they stand no chance because another two (entirely unrelated) groups have spoiled it for them just seems like the embodiment of stepping on someone else's work for no reason (or a terrible reason, at least).

If these guys 1) meet the standards enshrined in the rules, 2) have been conducting themselves maturely and 3) would benefit and develop greatly from receiving official status - what good reason is there for turning them down?

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[Corile]

Also, on top of what @jammi said, T&T started out as a faction with a junker subgroup and now everyone basically considers them Junkers, while I'm pretty sure Rob has tried everything to drop that piegonhole. They've been using Freelancer ID for a long time now, and while the quality of RP of some people might not be top of the shop they still present a rather extraordinary dedication.

(To avoid any accusations of bias, I've had some really successful and enjoyable RP with T&T and I've been in their chat for as long as I can remember, so yes, I might be biased but then again I know they're really dedicated).

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[Lythrilux]

On the OP you state that you want your ID (if you got/get official) to be considered as a Junker ID, so that's where part of the confusion stems from I believe. Would you be wanting to try and achieve Junker faction rights if you do get official? (I probably should've asked this earlier).

The only real issue I would see here, in regards to stuff Junker related, may be T&T using Junker ships. I guess technically it's part of their lore though and it'd be better if they earned them via interacting with other factions since they're Freelancers now I guess. That might be quite difficult though given the lore of Salvagers however. Not like they couldn't just use Hegemons and the like with a mining bonus instead though, which probably would be more fitting for them anyway.

I'm impartial when it comes to their officialdom - I wouldn't really see any major issues if they got official to be honest.

The original drama with JM and Congress stemmed from initial attitudes and skeptism that the latter had which eventually devolved into something nasty. I really don't see (at least from the JM side of things) such dramas repeating with T&T as I think these dudes are pretty chill.

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[Tarator]

I'd second what @jammi said, I can't really understand what Garret means, since they clearly stated they're FL id'ed, not? And if they meet the requirements and so, they shall be left having a chance, the reasons for the denying are really beyond me.

About feedback, well I never got to meet with a T&T in game, but thats only because I stopped playing in Liberty and the area around it.
But when it comes to forum, I've read a lot of T&T RP and I've to say they seem pretty decent and mature, at least as I see it.

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[jammi]

On the OP you state that you want your ID (if you got/get official) to be considered as a Junker ID, so that's where part of the confusion stems from I believe. Would you be wanting to try and achieve Junker faction rights if you do get official? (I probably should've asked this earlier).

I'd have presumed by Junker ID, they meant copying its wording and mining bonuses, not being "actual" Junkers.

See, not all scrappers are Junkers and not all Junkers are scrappers. The one unifying thread you can find in the Infocards that ties Junkers together is that they're a fiercely loyal community to one another; they'll never give one another up, no mater what - they're a large, shady, itinerant family.

If you're born outside of that community, you're not a Junker. Junkers aren't recruited, they're made. For outsiders, you're just another one of many folks working the scrap metal cottage industry. So far as I can gather, that's what T&T is.

I'll also second Bloxin's feedback. I've mostly only seen their forum RP (and felt vaguely sorry for them as they've tried to get a reply out of BretGov). But the forum RP has been without exception interesting and well written. You can tell these guys are going out of their way to make an impact and engage with as many people as possible, and that's why this decision is all the more dismaying.

[FynnMcScrap]

I thank all players now sending feedback and support,
even if I wonder why we have to get beaten with a B[A]nnHammer to get feedback ;-)

Pls keep it civil, as I would like to keep this thread open for reinstating my request in July ...after all as far as I read the rules we can do that 3 months after being denied.

Also, on top of what @jammi said, T&T started out as a faction with a junker subgroup and now everyone basically considers them Junkers, while I'm pretty sure Rob has tried everything to drop that piegonhole. They've been using Freelancer ID for a long time now, and while the quality of RP of some people might not be top of the shop they still present a rather extraordinary dedication.

(To avoid any accusations of bias, I've had some really successful and enjoyable RP with T&T and I've been in their chat for as long as I can remember, so yes, I might be biased but then again I know they're really dedicated).

Err ... I wanted to count as Junker ID to give Hogosha a chance to attack us. Also we want scrap bonus....

Fact is : I sent a lot of suggestions and questions, but never had a chance to balance anything or ask for advice. So I sent the request to fit the RP best while allowing for possibility to balance it from Admin side.

I will continue to do so as it is the only sensible thing to do.

And : thx for the RP so far, Protégé. You deserved your é for that ;-)

On the OP you state that you want your ID (if you got/get official) to be considered as a Junker ID, so that's where part of the confusion stems from I believe. Would you be wanting to try and achieve Junker faction rights if you do get official? (I probably should've asked this earlier).

(( ...: only the scrap bonus. But Im supposed they are worried about me getting ideas, and I have to agree there : I will get ideas.
Mostely based on RP though, and I am always looking for balance. ))

The only real issue I would see here, in regards to stuff Junker related, may be T&T using Junker ships. I guess technically it's part of their lore though and it'd be better if they earned them via interacting with other factions since they're Freelancers now I guess. That might be quite difficult though given the lore of Salvagers however. Not like they couldn't just use Hegemons and the like with a mining bonus instead though, which probably would be more fitting for them anyway.

((( ... we asked for a tech transfer already, using CSF with 75% .
And we would be happy to ask for the rest. We want to SCRAP ! Core to 75% would be acceptable )))

I'm impartial when it comes to their officialdom - I wouldn't really see any major issues if they got official to be honest.

The original drama with JM and Congress stemmed from initial attitudes and skeptism that the latter had which eventually devolved into something nasty. I really don't see (at least from the JM side of things) such dramas repeating with T&T as I think these dudes are pretty chill.


((( thx, Lyth. We try to be, with some hotheads always popping up. And as I allow full voting and group decisions they have something to say too. I deescalate all I can - and want to. But at the same time every one of my characters has at least 1 trigger to get him into full agression mode, and I am only mortal as player too. But I suck at PvP ;-) )))

Edit : @Bloxin , thx for the compliment

[FynnMcScrap]

On the OP you state that you want your ID (if you got/get official) to be considered as a Junker ID, so that's where part of the confusion stems from I believe. Would you be wanting to try and achieve Junker faction rights if you do get official? (I probably should've asked this earlier).

I'd have presumed by Junker ID, they meant copying its wording and mining bonuses, not being "actual" Junkers.

See, not all scrappers are Junkers and not all Junkers are scrappers. The one unifying thread you can find in the Infocards that ties Junkers together is that they're a fiercely loyal community to one another; they'll never give one another up, no mater what - they're a large, shady, itinerant family.

If you're born outside of that community, you're not a Junker. Junkers aren't recruited, they're made. For outsiders, you're just another one of many folks working the scrap metal cottage industry. So far as I can gather, that's what T&T is.

Tinkers is a manifold, an amalgan forged by an allleigance between Junkers and Freelancers. And will remain just that.

We see ourselves as Junkers, our RP is based on Junkers, and our faction main goal is to proove that Junkers can be acceptable traders, and honest buisnessmen.

At the same time we are quasi-lawful enough to deal with unlawfuls too, as long as they let us keep our own lifestyle... we honour INTEGRITY, not lawful conduct.
Translated : we stick to the meaning of a deal, not to its words.

"We aint no lawyer´s an´ no cutthroats, buddy ! We are Tinkers."

... But that also means that if Admin cut us down because we want to be Junkers, we nod, scramble, and return later on after surviving.

Life of a Junker, no ?

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FynnMcScrap, Foreman of Tinkers Haven

[Gondoros]

Thank you all , we really appreciate your feedback and your support( i'm looking at you Protégé)

I'm not sure how else to explain what I just stated. I'm fairly certain I will be unable to restate it in such a way so as to make it more palatable for you to accept. I understand your frustration with putting forth so much effort toward something, only to have it ultimately rejected. I totally get that.

However, multiple factions per NPC ID have been nothing short of problematic. Shared game assets, conflicting views on NPC lore and outright attempts at civil war, has given the Staff reason to be cautious when deciding to add a second or third official faction to an NPC ID.

The admins have to decide whether the added factions are sufficiently different than their official faction counterparts, and if so, is it worth all the drama that will inevitably come about with their inclusion as an official faction. In your case, the two other Official factions have already been beset with Oorp conflicts between themselves. Adding a third would be tantamount to pouring gasoline on the server and handing you the match.

As unpleasant as this is for you to hear, the Admins feel it is in your best interests to remain unofficial. It is in the best interests of the overall community. Lastly, it is in the best interests of the Staff.

If I sound a bit pissed, well you can understand my frustration.

First of all "civil war"? Really, are you honestly motivating your decision on the fact that if T&T would become official it might lead to a civil war? Well this ( and more things to come) makes me think that the Admins have not read a single piece of T&T RP.



"The admins have to decide whether the added factions are sufficiently different than their official faction counterparts"
Well let's see then. T&T does not claim bounties, does not pirate, does not smuggle, does not break laws, does not trade with outcasts, DOES trade in Kusari, DOES get pirated ( i don't know how many Congress junkers and Marauders get pirated in Liberty, my guess not that much bordering on none), DOES get involved in humanitarian interventions, and many more.
Different enough? I would say yes. Again Admins don't seem to be aware of T&T RP.



"is it worth all the drama that will inevitably come about with their inclusion as an official faction. In your case, the two other Official factions have already been beset with Oorp conflicts between themselves. Adding a third would be tantamount to pouring gasoline on the server and handing you the match."
Drama? T&T has never been involved in any drama. Sure we get upset when things don't go our way, but we keep our frustration in the Skype channel, and most importantly we DO NOT act on those frustrations until we chill and clear our minds. Hence the fact that every time T&T has been put in a uncomfortable situation, we compromise, always , like always. We DO NOT rage, we DO NOT threaten. We COMPROMISE and we use diplomacy exactly for avoiding drama and unneeded flame wars. But if Admins, would read T&T RP, they would've known this already.
That "handing you the match" metaphore is out of place. Implying that T&T would ever be the cause, even more so, the final nail, of a conflict, big or small, is another proof that Admins did not read any T&T RP or info.




"As unpleasant as this is for you to hear, the Admins feel it is in your best interests to remain unofficial. It is in the best interests of the overall community. Lastly, it is in the best interests of the Staff. "
I don't mind hearing the truth, as none should. What I do mind is hearing a long line of unfounded motives for our rejection. Everything that you have wrote down , has literally nothing to do with T&T.
How bout you do things different? How bout Admins give us a chance , before completely rejecting us, without any form of discussion or compromise. How bout Admins do not judge us on the actions of other factions? But on our own deeds and merits?


So, when you contemplate on the current situation, and give thought on the things to come, it stands to reason that T&T will always be rejected. Your "reasons" will always stand, because they have nothing to do with T&T. How can we be expected to change things that are not in our right to change nor in our power?

Right I'm done then.

[Garrett Jax]

Right, so I've reread your RP and this is what I've gleaned. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

First, I believe you claim to be an amalgam of two ID's, Freelancer and Junker. From what I gather you want the ZOI of the Freelancer ID so you can sell scrap in Kusari without getting blasted by Kusari factions, but you also want the Junker's scrap/p-scrap mining bonus that they get (or something very close). In order to 'compensate' for these positives, you have willingly allowed yourself to have a cargo restriction 700 units less than the Junker ID's, and you withhold your claim to the Pirate Train.

So, basically, it's a Freelancer ID with the scrap/pscrap bonus and use of the Junker shipline, including their Salvager.

Do I have the sense of things here?

If so, let me say that you are taking the best of two ID's with little downside for yourselves. This is the whole reason we have the one ID per faction rule. It prevents factions from sidestepping the restrictions imposed by the ID they use. The Junkers do not have the diplomatic freedom to fly through Kusari space, but you eliminate that by using the Freelancer ID. The Freelancer ID doesn't have a scrap/pscrap mining bonus, or the Junker shipline, but you eliminate that by using your Junker alts. Now, if I'm right, you want a Tinker ID which gives you everything in a nice neat little package. The sacrifices of making the move to 3600 cargo is insufficient. You don't need a Pirate train, because as your RP (that I did read btw) suggests you are not pirates, so that's no loss. It would be a wonderful OP setup for you.

Basically, you've almost achieved a neutral ID with a premium mining bonus. You don't engage in unlawful activities, so no lawful faction will come down on you. You're rep would be neutral or better with most unlawful factions in Liberty, save Xenos. Kusari lawfuls would leave you alone, and Kusari Corps would allow you dock on their bases. You'd undoubtedly be flying Salvagers, since you view yourselves as Junkers, but would expect all the other factions to view you as Freelancers, giving you the optimum ZOI. It's hard to find something to dislike in this setup.

As far as server balance is concerned, we have enough Junker official factions. There is not enough opposition to the Junker ID right now. Xenos get ganked by everything that moves, and Hogosha hardly exist. Even if the other Official Junker factions accepted you with open arms, the server itself doesn't need another Official Junker faction, especially an OP 'hybrid' one.

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