(09-10-2014, 08:18 AM)Laura C. Wrote: And it would quite lame to blame IMG| for actions of independent group. With this attitude, I can grab few friends, make corporate indie extremist groups and ruin diplomacy of several official factions by using allowed piracy / attacking clauses of rivals which their ID allows. And no one can stop us.
Actually I could, reading here that [HH] is made by much imput of the lead of IMG| and I dare to bet he has an [HH] ship himself. So this whole thing is in my eyes just some coverup. But by all means, just trow a party in Rheinland as [HH].
He had input, because he is an expert on IMG lore and RP. No, he does not have a ship nor is he in the faction chat. So all this claims of coverups and conspiracies is quite funny. Go put your tinfoil hat back on.
He has a HH ship, I know so and could prove it. But nvm, it would only start more ooRP then something else.
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The central problem with this entire idea is assuming that [HH] is some small part of IMG|, which it is completely not. Think of IMG| as the 'primary guild', or the main group of miners and privateers. Holman's Heroes is a small subsection of that which broke off after Gallic occupation and is now its own separate group, yet still independent miners and still, at least in theory, in the "Guild" itself, but not the "IMG|".
And please, stop assuming that this is some "Jack Henderson conspiracy faction". It's lead by Impy, I help do the forumwork, and there's a couple others roaming around too. The idea was neither created (as far as I know) nor proposed by Henderson, only encouraged and molded via his knowledge of IMG roleplay and diplomacy. This faction's goal is not to stir up out of roleplay hate, it is not to damage the reputation of IMG|, and it is not meant to start a war between Rheinland and IMG|. The actions of [HH] and the actions of IMG| must and should be kept separate, for they are not the same faction. If, say, an indie/unofficial LNS blew up a transport carrying legal ore, you would not sanction [LN], you would not seek legal action (at least directly) against [LN], you would go after the LNS / unofficial that did it. A distinction must be made between the two groups - they are separate entities, politically, economically, diplomatically, in goal and objective, in use of force, and in membership.
EDIT: Not to fall back on the "Marauder / Congress" example, but think of it like this: Currently, IMG| is in a shooting war with the Junker Marauders, as they tend to pirate and bring cardamine and all that. Meanwhile, the Congress is on neutral-unfriendly terms with the IMG|, being investigated for smuggling and working with the Outcasts. This is a (somewhat) similar scenario - the IMG| are lawful, mainly trading ore and having civil disagreements with other mining factions, while [HH] are more unlawful, pirating Kruger/Daumann transports, and supporting the Mollys and Hessians. Duality and representation of different sides of a faction can - and should, in some cases - exist, without the other side being harmed negatively, as long as a distinction is made - which it should be made - both in and out of roleplay.
There won't be any problem if people take this group like LNS (or another unofficial faction which has an official counterpart), which is roleplayed as the secondary fleet and their actions not regarded as significantly if they seem to affect the official faction in a negative way.
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: If, say, an indie/unofficial LNS blew up a transport carrying legal ore, you would not sanction [LN], you would not seek legal action (at least directly) against [LN], you would go after the LNS / unofficial that did it.
Exactly, that is why you are thinking wrong. This is an individual player wearing a open tag. Unlike the LNS the HH is a unofficial group targetting specific goals to not harm the IMG| as a whole, something you have also stated here:
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: This faction's goal is not to stir up out of roleplay hate, it is not to damage the reputation of IMG|, and it is not meant to start a war between Rheinland and IMG|. The actions of [HH] and the actions of IMG| must and should be kept separate, for they are not the same faction.
Also you have a membership and private faction what sabre was pointing out in here:
(09-10-2014, 10:19 AM)Sabre Wrote: He had input, because he is an expert on IMG lore and RP. No, he does not have a ship nor is he in the faction chat. So all this claims of coverups and conspiracies is quite funny. Go put your tinfoil hat back on.
This makes it much more organised then an LNS indy isn't it?
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(09-10-2014, 11:08 AM)Emile Wrote:
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: If, say, an indie/unofficial LNS blew up a transport carrying legal ore, you would not sanction [LN], you would not seek legal action (at least directly) against [LN], you would go after the LNS / unofficial that did it.
Exactly, that is why you are thinking wrong. This is an individual player wearing a open tag. Unlike the LNS the HH is a unofficial group targetting specific goals to not harm the IMG| as a whole, something you have also stated here:
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: This faction's goal is not to stir up out of roleplay hate, it is not to damage the reputation of IMG|, and it is not meant to start a war between Rheinland and IMG|. The actions of [HH] and the actions of IMG| must and should be kept separate, for they are not the same faction.
Also you have a membership and private faction what sabre was pointing out in here:
(09-10-2014, 10:19 AM)Sabre Wrote: He had input, because he is an expert on IMG lore and RP. No, he does not have a ship nor is he in the faction chat. So all this claims of coverups and conspiracies is quite funny. Go put your tinfoil hat back on.
This makes it much more organised then an LNS indy isn't it?
I did explicitly state "indie / unofficial LNS", referring to groups like 5th|, SFC|, 4-56|, and others, for example. And yes, it is much more organized than indie LNS. I think you're not understanding the point I'm trying to make. [HH] is separate in entirety from IMG|, just as 5th|, or 4-56|, or SFC|, or [insert unofficial Lib Navy faction here] is separate in everything but origin from [LN]. When an unofficial faction does something wrong, the unofficial faction is the one that gets in trouble, as it should be. The official should not be responsible for what an unofficial does, as they have no direct control over them. Sure, FR2 exists, but in practice it's much harder to use effectively than it might seem.
Emile, you got it wrong mate.
Official factions cannot force you, single player or unnoficial faction, to follow non-canon RP.
The dev team and co. wrote the story for ALL the players, that story cannot be changed by the Official Factions. Some things can be adjusted to the enviroment in-game, mostly where there is a grey area like houses not at war with each other, Houses laws, coorporations working in border worlds.
HH can act following the IMG IDs, and IMG| cannot do anything about it. And the [RM] shouldnt treat all IMG groups based on the actions of the Official Faction.
Edited: It's a very different deal when unofficial fations play non-canon RP, then the official faction might get involved depending on the situation and use their faction rights on that unofficial group.
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: If, say, an indie/unofficial LNS blew up a transport carrying legal ore, you would not sanction [LN], you would not seek legal action (at least directly) against [LN], you would go after the LNS / unofficial that did it.
Exactly, that is why you are thinking wrong. This is an individual player wearing a open tag. Unlike the LNS the HH is a unofficial group targetting specific goals to not harm the IMG| as a whole, something you have also stated here:
(09-10-2014, 10:58 AM)John Wildkins Wrote: This faction's goal is not to stir up out of roleplay hate, it is not to damage the reputation of IMG|, and it is not meant to start a war between Rheinland and IMG|. The actions of [HH] and the actions of IMG| must and should be kept separate, for they are not the same faction.
Also you have a membership and private faction what sabre was pointing out in here:
(09-10-2014, 10:19 AM)Sabre Wrote: He had input, because he is an expert on IMG lore and RP. No, he does not have a ship nor is he in the faction chat. So all this claims of coverups and conspiracies is quite funny. Go put your tinfoil hat back on.
This makes it much more organised then an LNS indy isn't it?
If you want better examples, take recent problem with GDE. GMG indies causing troubles with Rheinland. Was anybody calling GMG| to take any actions against them or even wanted to punish GMG| for GDE actions? No, why should, when it was completely separate group.
Or possible example - I will make indie faction KV - Kruger Vigilantes, which will pirate IMG and GMG everywhere possible. Should be Kruger| faction responsible for KV´s actions and if we will pirate for example in Bretonia space, should Kruger| suffer consequencies from Bretonia government?
A few facts and impressions as to IMG, HH and my (lack of) involvement, written under the influence of (prescribed) drugs, so if things do not make sense, either ask or ignore it.
Always add... in my opinion / from my experience, etc. These are subjective impressions (except when it is about the Faction Rights).
HH is not my faction. I did not make it. Impy made it and leads it.
HH has been around for quite a while. Months, it did not spring up the last few days as a consequence to whatever some people think.
HH only became a visible thing now because of the Diamond buff and a large number of Diamond miners
I did not like HH first, as it was called "Henderson's Heroes" back then and smelled like a troll faction against IMG (it proved, it was not).
I acted as an adviser in HH in regards to IMG lore and how to make it fit into the IMG ID and roleplay
I renamed an IMG| bomber to HH for one day to fly with the guys and see what it is like. The HH bomber does not exist any more.
I do not own HH ships, nor shared HH and I am not in any HH Skype channel.
Did I mention that HH is not me?
Can IMG| and HH cooperate together? Sure they can. They are a family. In some regions such a cooperation would have to be done more carefully than in others (e.g. mining in Taus, fighting off Corsairs in Cambridge).
HH is part of the Guild. IMG| is part of the Guild. IMG indies are part of the Guild. While IMG| resembles a moderate, mostly-lawful, mostly harmless majority of the Guild, HH portrays the extreme wings of the Guild. Like in every political party, you have moderates and extremists. This fits very well into IMG rp, as it says "a loosely organised association of miners coming from many different places"
IMG| cannot order HH to play like I play IMG|. I chose my interpretation, they have theirs. Both are fully acceptable.
IMG| are not "the IMG bosses" ingamely who give orders. As a loosely organised Guild, we do not have ranks and structures like that.
FR2 orders to HH do not work. As long as they play inside the ID, and inside IMG lore (not my playing style of IMG|, but the complete IMG lore), I cannot FR2. As IMG Lore includes piracy and fights against corporations (as every miner ID does), HH is fully inside IMG lore, therefore I cannot do anything, even if I wanted.
FR5s against your own faction ID are impossible
I also do not feel like acting against HH in any way. Having played with them for a few hours, I find their way fun and a nice addition to my tame IMG| interpretation of the ID. The contrast is refreshing.
I only quit it because it was advisable in the current oorply tense situation with Kruger and allegations that this is in reality Jack's revenge group. Did I mention it is not?
Would the IMG| oppose HH ingamely? Perhaps if they were too daring. Words of warnings. Some intra-faction controversy. But remember, they do not have to listen to what I/my chars say. They believe in their own way. The Guild has the potential for very heterogenuous people in it.
Would IMG| carry the consequences of HH'S actions because IMG| is "official"? Definitely not. You have a tagged faction there, it has their own representatives ingame and outofgame. Contact them and rp with them. They are not a trollfaction, so... roleplay and interact with them directly.
Should the whole IMG ID be made red to Rheinland bc of what HH does? No. HH should be FR5ed after some roleplay was made. Their concept very much supports this step and will deal with it. It would be very unclever (irply) to outlaw 90 % lawful people because 10 % extremists are hiding inside the 100 % "Guild".
HH, as far as I have seen, is definitely not a hate/troll/grieve faction. I watched them pirate in O11, and there was a lot more rp than in normal piracy, also some quality there. I also realized, DHC indies need to buy armor.
Oh and, did I mention it is not a Jack Henderson Conspiracy faction? I guess I did.
I hope this could address a few points that came up.
Recruitment is also informally open, though keep in mind the numbers of the group itself are intended to remain small-ish.
Anyone interested in possibly joining should shoot a PM to this account with information they feel is relevant such as reason for wanting to join. Note : In keeping the group small we're really only looking to take those people that are competent in both RP and PVP, sadly we cant keep the group small while also being open to the entire community.