(02-26-2019, 09:42 AM)SnakThree Wrote: Fricking restriction lists. I hate them so much. They add unnecessary fluff or silly RP where most newbies and indies can't be bothered with and get harassed by local police. You wanna bring Light Arms to Bretonia? GET A PERMIT. What a nonsense.
I asked you last time when there was talk about this but you did not reply, so I will ask again:
(12-12-2018, 04:27 PM)Laura C. Wrote: How do you propose to handle borderline stuff though? I mean, are we going to ignore roleplay (and also common sense) and pretend that it´s fine that literally every regular Joe can without any need for permission transport/trade for example heavy weaponry (armaments, munitions, military vehicles), prisoners and criminals, or stuff which is by logic or in the infocard described as "highly regulated" (nuclear devices) or "kept out of open market" (DT fuel)?
The restricted licensing (at least in case of Rheinland) was created with this logic in mind and also to create roleplay opportunities and give lawfuls more things to do. Not because "someone chose to exert their power to oppress user-friendly trading". Like I said previously, the mentioned stuff could have been put under full contraband category but that would end in complete loss of roleplay opportunity for those who do business roleplay.
To be honest, I’ve never had an issue with trading between houses. It’s normally fairly obvious what is okay and what is not. In the odd occasion where you do get stopped most people will let you off with a warning but if they do fine you it tends to be 2-5mil which isn’t going to upset many people. I agree with Laz that maybe if we automated it then it would be easier but that’s another thing that will take time away from the developers normal duties.
(02-25-2019, 04:31 PM)Commissar SnakeLancer™ Wrote: So I know the smuggling routes have been buffed lately but the routes for Revolutionary factions or Unlawful Factions that dont participiate in Drugs and other stuff like artifacts and all are still hopeless.
I've had a conversation with someone saying that if we'd buff the unlawful ore sell points, you'd have Zoners all over the place (because they cant dock on House Space with a 5ker) and I understand that.
So I wanted to propose, what if we allow factions like Blood Dragons, Order, Coalition, Red Hessians, Mollys, Council (Those that do not partake in smuggling drugs, artifacts or whatever) to fly a 5ker to make their routes somewhat profitable? Cuz I think having an additional 700 - 800 cargo might do the trick without realy ruining OR touching the economy at all. What do you think?
revolutionaries already have all the perks of being unlawfuls with the additional perks of being 'The Good Guys'.
THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)
(12-12-2018, 04:27 PM)Laura C. Wrote: How do you propose to handle borderline stuff though? I mean, are we going to ignore roleplay (and also common sense) and pretend that it´s fine that literally every regular Joe can without any need for permission transport/trade for example heavy weaponry (armaments, munitions, military vehicles), prisoners and criminals, or stuff which is by logic or in the infocard described as "highly regulated" (nuclear devices) or "kept out of open market" (DT fuel)?
The restricted licensing (at least in case of Rheinland) was created with this logic in mind and also to create roleplay opportunities and give lawfuls more things to do. Not because "someone chose to exert their power to oppress user-friendly trading". Like I said previously, the mentioned stuff could have been put under full contraband category but that would end in complete loss of roleplay opportunity for those who do business roleplay.
I agree that borderline cargo should be regulated, it makes sense. Where i find this falls short in practice is that it’s not being executed very well. Rheinland is a prime example of this but not the only one. Yes, restricted cargo is opening up more RP encounters to lawfuls. But from my experience those opportunities are squandered when cops repeatedly go back to the “do or die” principle we see so often in piracy.
So i suspect the level of enjoyment of the experience for all parties tends to hover around rock bottom.
I guess my question is, if you’re not taking advantage of those opportunities to do something other than just fine people, what’s the point? Why not just pirate?
Lawfuls shouldn’t have to rely on piracy tactics to get their way. They can potentially create their own flavour of RP and bring something novel to this sort of encounter. Otherwise it’s just piracy with paperwork.
(02-26-2019, 09:42 AM)SnakThree Wrote: Fricking restriction lists. I hate them so much. They add unnecessary fluff or silly RP where most newbies and indies can't be bothered with and get harassed by local police. You wanna bring Light Arms to Bretonia? GET A PERMIT. What a nonsense.
I asked you last time when there was talk about this but you did not reply, so I will ask again:
(12-12-2018, 04:27 PM)Laura C. Wrote: How do you propose to handle borderline stuff though? I mean, are we going to ignore roleplay (and also common sense) and pretend that it´s fine that literally every regular Joe can without any need for permission transport/trade for example heavy weaponry (armaments, munitions, military vehicles), prisoners and criminals, or stuff which is by logic or in the infocard described as "highly regulated" (nuclear devices) or "kept out of open market" (DT fuel)?
The restricted licensing (at least in case of Rheinland) was created with this logic in mind and also to create roleplay opportunities and give lawfuls more things to do. Not because "someone chose to exert their power to oppress user-friendly trading". Like I said previously, the mentioned stuff could have been put under full contraband category but that would end in complete loss of roleplay opportunity for those who do business roleplay.
That every Trader Joe that is corporate trader should already have necessary permits by corporation he is working for. Freelancers are different topic.
(02-25-2019, 06:45 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Are the volograd arms balanced with contraband prices? I know Kemwer isn't.
kinda the same like Kemwer if I remember right.
You might want to get them a balance pass as if they're contraband without contraband pricing they're pretty worthless.
RE: Borderline Cargo being regulated and requiring stupid permits (looking at you Bretonia):
These types of cargo should not be falling into grey areas and regulated via permits. They either need to be outright banned from the Houses or treated as goods that can be shipped legally without having to pay any stupid fees (monthly or otherwise). Why? Because if there's even a single means to ship them legally, they get balanced like legal goods, and so have awful pricing even though they've got contraband status as dictated by the Houses that have sell points for them.
Also, factions having to pay Houses to ship their own commodity is stupid.
(02-25-2019, 04:31 PM)Commissar SnakeLancer™ Wrote: So I know the smuggling routes have been buffed lately but the routes for Revolutionary factions or Unlawful Factions that dont participiate in Drugs and other stuff like artifacts and all are still hopeless.
I've had a conversation with someone saying that if we'd buff the unlawful ore sell points, you'd have Zoners all over the place (because they cant dock on House Space with a 5ker) and I understand that.
So I wanted to propose, what if we allow factions like Blood Dragons, Order, Coalition, Red Hessians, Mollys, Council (Those that do not partake in smuggling drugs, artifacts or whatever) to fly a 5ker to make their routes somewhat profitable? Cuz I think having an additional 700 - 800 cargo might do the trick without realy ruining OR touching the economy at all. What do you think?
revolutionaries already have all the perks of being unlawfuls with the additional perks of being 'The Good Guys'.
(02-26-2019, 03:57 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: RE: Borderline Cargo being regulated and requiring stupid permits (looking at you Bretonia):
These types of cargo should not be falling into grey areas and regulated via permits. They either need to be outright banned from the Houses or treated as goods that can be shipped legally without having to pay any stupid fees (monthly or otherwise). Why? Because if there's even a single means to ship them legally, they get balanced like legal goods, and so have awful pricing even though they've got contraband status as dictated by the Houses that have sell points for them.
Also, factions having to pay Houses to ship their own commodity is stupid.
I disagree. Grey area commodities allow room for factions to make their own rules and thus RP. Many of these commodities, including kemwer and ageira boxes are banned for political reasons and are thus a tool of diplomacy.
I empathise that the beureaucracy has gotten so bad that we’re seeing fees applied to allied corporations, though i’d say that is down to decisions of OFLs, not the dynamic itself.
(02-26-2019, 05:24 PM)Ash Wrote: I disagree. Grey area commodities allow room for factions to make their own rules and thus RP. Many of these commodities, including kemwer and ageira boxes are banned for political reasons and are thus a tool of diplomacy.
It screws over the viability of those items as practical trade routes. For the sake of gameplay and economy balance, they need to sit on one side of the fence, not on top of it. Either that, or the contraband policy when it comes to economy balance needs to change, and all of these silly regulated items need a serious price buff.
I don't know so much about Ageira Grey Boxes, but whilst Kemwer is contraband outright but Order| explicitly requested they don't get contraband prices (they were intended to be unviable, for some reason), so it's not comparable.
Either way, an element of their roleplay value does diminish as they lose their worth as a viable commodity to haul around and grind trading activity.
Although they don't really allow factions to make their own rules and RP - the Houses are in effect the ones who dictate the prices of these goods, and their viability.
(02-26-2019, 02:22 PM)Ash Wrote: I agree that borderline cargo should be regulated, it makes sense. Where i find this falls short in practice is that it’s not being executed very well. Rheinland is a prime example of this but not the only one. Yes, restricted cargo is opening up more RP encounters to lawfuls. But from my experience those opportunities are squandered when cops repeatedly go back to the “do or die” principle we see so often in piracy.
So i suspect the level of enjoyment of the experience for all parties tends to hover around rock bottom.
I guess my question is, if you’re not taking advantage of those opportunities to do something other than just fine people, what’s the point? Why not just pirate?
Lawfuls shouldn’t have to rely on piracy tactics to get their way. They can potentially create their own flavour of RP and bring something novel to this sort of encounter. Otherwise it’s just piracy with paperwork.
I am not sure what execution of the mentioned opportunity you expect, maybe you could elaborate more. Generally, there is nothing wrong with lawful characters enforcing laws just as there is nothing wrong with pirates wanting their money (as long as demands are reasonable). When it comes to restricted cargo or even contraband, it is up to every player and his character if he will be strict and honest cop which takes no excuses and enforce the law to the letter of it, or the understanding one which can close his eye here or there because he believes the story about poor trader which needs money for his children with deadly disease, or the corrupt one which does the same for money. Or something between those depending on situation and roleplay of the other side. All those roles are valid. Though people should not expect as granted that just because they roleplay, they are entitled to get away every time (applies both to encounter with lawfuls and unlawfuls).
(02-26-2019, 03:50 PM)SnakThree Wrote:
(02-26-2019, 10:00 AM)Laura C. Wrote:
(02-26-2019, 09:42 AM)SnakThree Wrote: Fricking restriction lists. I hate them so much. They add unnecessary fluff or silly RP where most newbies and indies can't be bothered with and get harassed by local police. You wanna bring Light Arms to Bretonia? GET A PERMIT. What a nonsense.
I asked you last time when there was talk about this but you did not reply, so I will ask again:
(12-12-2018, 04:27 PM)Laura C. Wrote: How do you propose to handle borderline stuff though? I mean, are we going to ignore roleplay (and also common sense) and pretend that it´s fine that literally every regular Joe can without any need for permission transport/trade for example heavy weaponry (armaments, munitions, military vehicles), prisoners and criminals, or stuff which is by logic or in the infocard described as "highly regulated" (nuclear devices) or "kept out of open market" (DT fuel)?
The restricted licensing (at least in case of Rheinland) was created with this logic in mind and also to create roleplay opportunities and give lawfuls more things to do. Not because "someone chose to exert their power to oppress user-friendly trading". Like I said previously, the mentioned stuff could have been put under full contraband category but that would end in complete loss of roleplay opportunity for those who do business roleplay.
That every Trader Joe that is corporate trader should already have necessary permits by corporation he is working for. Freelancers are different topic.
Well, we are talking just about the level of restriction then, not the principle. Even you mention that there are parties which should not be allowed to freely transport some types of cargo. Basically, those which cannot be trusted enough like freelancers or zoners, and of course junkers. And there are some commodities which are either faction specific or are supposed to be restricted that heavily that not even all corporations (at least not the foreign ones) are supposed to be allowed to transport them. Especially if we take into consideration inRP specifics, for example Rheinland´s protectionist tendencies influenced by the lobby of some domestic corporations.