Honestly I'm just lazy. I've wanted a toku and to get involved since the KNF RM war but I just haven't the motivation to actually grind the ships and armour required.
I'd take part and am going to take part. I just need to get off my arse.
ALSO a dead faction wouldn't ever move under your idea. In fact it would just straight up die. Horrifically.
Nothing would happen.
Even more so too. There used to be a conquest pvp server like that. I don't remember the outcome but if I recall it was pretty one sided.
I'm kind of sick of seeing hurr durr war crimes and genocide oh look my house collapsed into civil war.
Can we get some internal RP about a houses logistics 'n stuff? That'd be great. During the war that is.
(06-28-2020, 11:13 PM)FrodoTheFluffy Wrote: My Disaster Response i offer in FTP would actually perform better than just simple RP with a more structured idea like yours!
Having a repair ship, and vessels to transport cargo into warzones and get refugees and innocents safe from house political wars and offer safe respite is all we can offer currently but imagine the potential for my crews RP if your ideas were actually a thing!
Yeah well it would be interesting to see, as any FL group or Corp ID could offer repair services (contracts) for base maintenance, or for sieges, emergency base repairs.
(06-28-2020, 11:19 PM)Hokan Wrote:
Binkski Wrote:
(06-28-2020, 10:35 PM)Groshyr Wrote: So the Red Hessians would conquest Rheinland in one night?
Yeah probably makes more sense than the Bretonian conspired imperial coup plot. There already was a civil war going on. And if were up to me, Rheinland would have more ships to replace lost ones with, it wouldn't just be over after one siege. And the RH would have their own mortal caps they'd need to protect as they go, so it wouldn't be an instant cataclysm. With repair ships working these would be the most balanced sieges/wars we ever had here.
Two things.
Firstly, the Bretonian backed Imperial coup 'plot' was player RP.
Secondly, when considering using PoB's for wars and battles such as what you claim. You also need to consider that bases get attacked when people are either asleep or otherwise unable to be online. Your method will also go a very long way to allowing very small groups to topple large militaries through force of arms, for no good reason.
A good example to illustrate the point, would be if we established a number for Bretonia and player understood that if they destroy these pobs then Bretonia will be harmed. Given that previous devs inadequately showcased postwar Bretonia/Bretonia under siege and caused the creation of the Devtonia meme. It's not a leap of logic to presume the deck would be stacked heavily against the house. Even if only Mollys were allowed to do the sieges.
Yes but that's why I suggest allowing the use of Repair Ships. I really don't think it would go that fast if it was done right. I wish it could be tried so the debate could be put to an end. Round the clock attack chances get balanced out by round the clock repair ability. If you still want to siege in organized events, go for it, but others could keep the pressure up on those ships in the days between.
(06-28-2020, 11:28 PM)Omicron Wrote: Meanwhile there's me who tries to make enough time on my own schedule to actually get involved with everything that happens lately, because there is so much things to do and shoot.
Sure well I'm envious you're able to be happy with the same old thing. Without anything actually at risk or able to be effected in game (other than POB's) its meaningless to me.
(06-28-2020, 11:51 PM)Hubjump Wrote: Honestly I'm just lazy. I've wanted a toku and to get involved since the KNF RM war but I just haven't the motivation to actually grind the ships and armour required.
I'd take part and am going to take part. I just need to get off my arse.
ALSO a dead faction wouldn't ever move under your idea. In fact it would just straight up die. Horrifically.
Nothing would happen.
Even more so too. There used to be a conquest pvp server like that. I don't remember the outcome but if I recall it was pretty one sided.
I'm kind of sick of seeing hurr durr war crimes and genocide oh look my house collapsed into civil war.
Can we get some internal RP about a houses logistics 'n stuff? That'd be great. During the war that is.
Activity would go where the ideas are best. Each faction should have a great deal of its bases/assets able to be fought over, and if they lose after many sieges, or shrink fast because they just aren't that popular, so be it. Any diminished faction can serve still as npc fodder or a potential build up project. Either keep it to war zones only, organized House VS House conquests, or only allow factions with battleships to lay siege to bases in house space. In the situation of this war, the systems they just moved into all have caps from either side, the open battles could be contained to one or a few zones like that around the server.
As a Kusari player of 10 years, I've been asking for Kusari to fight Gallia ever since the devs said "You lose your entire fleet, there's nothing you can do about it. Cope." It's about time Kusari warships entered Languedoc, let's not stop until we roll up to New Paris and make Leeds look like a joke
I mean, let's pacify gallia so they never commit any warcrimes ever again
(06-28-2020, 11:20 PM)LuckyOne Wrote: Ok, from a scale of 1 to Snoop Dog, how high are you right now ?
(06-28-2020, 10:46 PM)Groshyr Wrote: Sorry but I'm not into such things. I prefer to have clear mind. So no alcohol, no smoking, no drugs.
I now understand your attitude much better, you don't know how to have fun! (That's okay, I don't know how either)
And now the serious part.
Binski has one point in this, and I already mentioned it several times before.
The problem of current Discovery is... There's no natural endgame. Once you've seen all the systems, explored all the jumpholes, got all the ships you want, tried every mission in every available system, hoarded trillions of credits and traded every commodity, ore and equipment ever seen in the game, gathered a band of merry men in your now official faction... You got nothing left to do!
Unless you're one of those creative types that can organize events, or write long winded RP posts and try to influence the devs to include your story in the official canon, the game itself will not encourage you to remain active in any serious way.
It seems to me most of the people then flock to one of the following options
Go hunting blues
Join anti-POB doomsquad (which is just blues hunting, but more tiresome)
PVP in Conn 24/7 (again, blues hunting, but without the hunting part)
Only log for events and occasional memes (blues hunting, but with a twist)
Sit bored on your a** in front of some important place, hoping something actually happens (as I'm writing this there are currently 3 utterly bored capships sitting in front of Manhattan with nothing to do) - again blues hunting, but you actually wait for them to come to you
Build a POB, and become base owned player
Now of course, war, brings activity, brings a chance to use those ships you have had for years collecting dust. But it's also not very meaningful in the end if your actions actually don't matter because the devs have their own straight path they are not willing to deviate from. Luckily the current devs seem more open to player-driven resolution of story events so it remains to be seen how things will develop from here.
Another problem with requiring war to actually stir up the bees to do something is that you have to come up with more and more ridiculous reasons for starting wars... And that leaves players bitter and unhappy because they feel the backdrop is being forced on them.
Now if you actually had something to do... If every station, ship and character action somehow mattered (or if you could make it feel like it mattered) Discovery could be reborn into a much more active game.
Aye well said indeed. I believe that at this point, we're ready to let the bees do their own thing. I'd rather see all of these fleets be used because those factions had something more important to worry about than non military POB's, which is pretty much every one. Why are we not having sieges as often, but actually with the game objects. The meaning comes from fighting over control of an area, and the base lost won't always be a POB that ate hundreds of hours. Those static NPC caps can be renamed, replaced, its just 0' and 1's. But people will log for a good fight if they know something an really be gained, or lost.
(06-28-2020, 11:44 PM)E X O D I T E Wrote: quote
Yeah if Kusari had joined the war against Gallia 3 or 4 years ago though instead of the civil war, Gallia would have fell much easier. I think we definitely should have tried to bridge the in game <-> lore gap and have ended the Gallic War with real sieges, player driven battles. Believe it or not, if they'd let us actually have the chance to determine it in battles, I'd have accepted occupation and losing (oorply) and have just kept on hoping to turn it around one day, so long as a fair system allowed for it.
To me, if repairs are properly balanced, these wars would simply wind up more likely slow moving conflicts where attackers vs defenders/repairers are so balanced, it would take a big big battle to tip the scale and finish off a station/base ship. In most cases, stations would be chipped away at until they get low, if allowed to get low, allowing for an attempt by a big group to finish it off.
Kusari just after being released from a position of a puppet, obliterated fleet a few years ago, decimated economy that would take decades to restore, a small yet indecisive war with greatly weakened Rheinland now goes to war against albeit weakened yet unified Gallia that will not suffer inner strife this time, and the Enclave will likely support the Confeds to avoid any filthy foreigner stepping foot in Gallic core worlds. Basically, this war strengthens Gallia, gives it an external threat its ideology badly needed, powers up its military-industrial complex and justifies expansaion in Taus (and maybe, reorganising in napoleonesque Empire). Bravo, Kusari, you outplayed yourself! Wonderful analysis of situation! Excellent understanding of Japanese rational mentality! *cries in geopolitics*.
Excellent understanding of the situation in the Taus, Gardarik. Except not quite. Gallia has been defeated in what is the greatest conflict humanity has ever seen, and no matter how much sense the latest developments of that war make regarding logic and taking factions' past action into account, the fact is it has been defeated. A defeat that turned out very messy. By far the biggest part of its fleets were fighting in the Sirian theatre, away from home. After ghe events of Leeds -in which the to-be enclave forces engaged their own deserters and destroyed like a third of the involved fleet, a part of the forces followed the call home to Gallia, a considerable amount stayed with the Enclave, and a part was just outright destroyed.
This military split as well as the at best shaky internal political situation in the new Confederacy have -or should have, I will admit I am not entirely certain how well these effects were translated into storytelling - left Gallia considerably weakened. For the moment. Because while the war war devastatinf for its military capacities, the Gallic homeland had been left virtually unscathed in comparison. A major industrial power and population pool remains in the hands of the states of the Confederacy. There is no doubt that, given at the most a few years and only some internal consolidation, they will regain a lot of their capacities, and will outshine Kusari at this point.
On that note, Kusari, unlike you seemdd to display it, is not and should not be at the ground still. Following the devastating defeat against Gallia and the rise of a cooperative government, Kusari had much, much time to come back onto its feet. It had actually beeb heloed a lot by Gallia in that, providing technology transfers and construction projects. It was not involved in any prolonged major cobflicts, barring the fairly limited Sigma conflict and the civil war, which was very much a war of movement with relatively little casualties, the only remarkable one being battleship Nagumo. And that was somewhat made up by two battle hardened, veteran battlegroups around the Nagasaki and Yamaguchi returning home.
Not to unnecessarily talk up one party and downplay the other, what I'm trying to say is that these opponents right as of this moment should be a lot closer in military power than people seem to think. And while you could again argue hiw high the odds for this somewhat uphill battle are, there are avenues of thought where this is a logical conclusion to come to. One being that the sweeping defeat was a watershed moment in Kusarian history. It was an event like for the French it was thd Battle of Verdun or, I guess more fittingly, the Battle of France. Something that evokes a strong sentiment of "Never again". Especually within those that were displaced due to Gallia for near to 10 years and who returned into positions of power after the civil war in Kusari was over. That, and how Gallia was treated after the war - little checks and balances put into place by the victors, no Gallia internal efforts to revisit the events or curtail the many still powerful aristocratic and formerly loyalist elements, and the aforementioned industrial power, have created an intense doubt that "Another Gallia" truly won't happen again.
You could say what won out in the military and political spheres is a mix of panic and revanchism. The victors of the Gallic war did not make sure to deal with this, so we must - as long as we still can. It is something that is questionable in its chances of success. But it is a very understandable train of thought.
Squished bigly ~Champ- Thanks, you're a champ. "What's the word for when it feels inside your heart that everything in the world is all right?"
I also want to add, your idea of fighting over territory has been done in many other ways and many other games before, but almost never on this scale you are proposing - whole Sirius with dozens of factions, except the often mentioned EVE Online.
I'm going to list a few games I'm familiar with that either feature a "campaign map" or building + sieging elements. As I came here from other, mainly WW2 themed communities you might find the list a bit biased towards that.
WW2Online - there is a map, you can build assets for your side to use and move around command centres. Everyone plays on the same server and a gigantic map of Europe. 2 factions, Axis and Allies
Heroes and Generals - haven't played a long time, but the idea is quite similar to WW2 Online. I believe there are now 3 factions so it's an interesting example of asymmetrical balance. I seem to remember there was a giant balance problem as one side (Allies) was always outnumbered
Foxhole. A really interesting example of real time player driven building, production, logistics and great PVE / PVP gameplay. Also features a map of territories to fight over. Again only 2 sides and one big server.
Planetside 1/2. Old but gold. 3 factions and player buildable defenses, faction deployable call-ins in the form of "Bastion Fleet Carriers". Also features one massive server with thousands of players.
Space Engineers - from the original idea of Miner Wars transformed through Minecraft-like building and crafting features. Factions are player organized. Features private servers, but everything happens in a single solar system.
EVE Online, of course. Arguably the most similar in setting and potential gameplay mechanics implementation. One gigantic server and many player controlled factions.
So as we can see from the examples, without the ability to go over a few hundred players on this old engine only a small scale implementation of the idea is possible in Freelancer. Maybe only during wars and focused on two opposed sides.
The thing is, most of the required gameplay mechanics are already present in Disco. What is needed is a mindset / ruleset change, but I'm not sure the majority of this community wants that.
As it stands now you could always try to build a POB then SRP it to be replaced by a Battleship model and get it moved into the war zone and then let players fight over it. It would just be very tedious to do, and might not matter for the war outcome.
Quote: Foxhole. A really interesting example of real time player driven building, production, logistics and great PVE / PVP gameplay. Also features a map of territories to fight over. Again only 2 sides and one big server.
Dead game, devs are very biased and dismiss Warden playerbase
Glory to Callahan.
(06-29-2020, 05:16 AM)Kiith Wrote: Excellent understanding of the situation in the Taus, Gardarik. Except not quite. Gallia has been defeated in what is the greatest conflict humanity has ever seen, and no matter how much sense the latest developments of that war make regarding logic and taking factions' past action into account, the fact is it has been defeated. A defeat that turned out very messy. By far the biggest part of its fleets were fighting in the Sirian theatre, away from home. After ghe events of Leeds -in which the to-be enclave forces engaged their own deserters and destroyed like a third of the involved fleet, a part of the forces followed the call home to Gallia, a considerable amount stayed with the Enclave, and a part was just outright destroyed.
This military split as well as the at best shaky internal political situation in the new Confederacy have -or should have, I will admit I am not entirely certain how well these effects were translated into storytelling - left Gallia considerably weakened. For the moment. Because while the war war devastatinf for its military capacities, the Gallic homeland had been left virtually unscathed in comparison. A major industrial power and population pool remains in the hands of the states of the Confederacy. There is no doubt that, given at the most a few years and only some internal consolidation, they will regain a lot of their capacities, and will outshine Kusari at this point.
On that note, Kusari, unlike you seemdd to display it, is not and should not be at the ground still. Following the devastating defeat against Gallia and the rise of a cooperative government, Kusari had much, much time to come back onto its feet. It had actually beeb heloed a lot by Gallia in that, providing technology transfers and construction projects. It was not involved in any prolonged major cobflicts, barring the fairly limited Sigma conflict and the civil war, which was very much a war of movement with relatively little casualties, the only remarkable one being battleship Nagumo. And that was somewhat made up by two battle hardened, veteran battlegroups around the Nagasaki and Yamaguchi returning home.
Not to unnecessarily talk up one party and downplay the other, what I'm trying to say is that these opponents right as of this moment should be a lot closer in military power than people seem to think. And while you could again argue hiw high the odds for this somewhat uphill battle are, there are avenues of thought where this is a logical conclusion to come to. One being that the sweeping defeat was a watershed moment in Kusarian history. It was an event like for the French it was thd Battle of Verdun or, I guess more fittingly, the Battle of France. Something that evokes a strong sentiment of "Never again". Especually within those that were displaced due to Gallia for near to 10 years and who returned into positions of power after the civil war in Kusari was over. That, and how Gallia was treated after the war - little checks and balances put into place by the victors, no Gallia internal efforts to revisit the events or curtail the many still powerful aristocratic and formerly loyalist elements, and the aforementioned industrial power, have created an intense doubt that "Another Gallia" truly won't happen again.
You could say what won out in the military and political spheres is a mix of panic and revanchism. The victors of the Gallic war did not make sure to deal with this, so we must - as long as we still can. It is something that is questionable in its chances of success. But it is a very understandable train of thought.
Let us evaluate the situation.
1. Thesis about the messy war for Gallia. I would reject this thesis. Firstly, the Gallia did not lose the war to allies, the Gallia lost the war to itself. It imploded in the most spectacular and illogical move due to a decision of the devs to finish the war asap. Mind, that the end of the war was brought with the advance of Council's forces on New Paris, where the royalists that would become the Grand Duchy surrendered without a fight. Implying further conclusions:
the fleets and personnel of both attackers and defenders were spared;
the infrastructure of the capital world and many others was spared and is up and running;
Yes, the Enclave's forces that are still considerable retreated, but they are still only a fraction of the Royal Fleet (because part thereof became the fleet of Duchy) and the Council's fleet a bit outdated yet still big enough to challenge the might of the Royal Navy, the most powerful navy in the sector, left spared. Now combine the two and you will get the might of the Confederacy.
Also mind, that despite Confederacy's economy being weaked due to reorganisation (which I myself did a financial analysis RP on as MAE), the COnfederacy did not pay any contributions after the war. I participated in those from the OC side and remember the butthurt of the parties present. Gallia was not really weakened by war compared to other Houses, it was weakened by war compared only to its former self.
On the other hand, Gallia got a war-hardened veteran army that had no more foes to face. This was a big hit against military-oriented industrial complex of Gallia that lost the major contract, and many soldiers also lost their purpose. The Confederacy also struggled to unite because every part wanted something for itself, and even antagonising Enclave was not so successful because some people viewed it as a legitimate successor of Gallia since for them crimes against Bretonians were fully justified (hunreads of years of royal propaganda at play). Now you give them the reason to unite with a preatty reasonable cause - a threat of invasion. Your ships are present in the Gallic home words - this will not go unnoticed by the xenophobic Gallic populace that will rally to support the Confederacy regardless of affiliation - the internal strife will be put aside until the major issue of the war is resolved. This partially happened during the allied intervention in revolution and civil-war torn Russia in 1917-22 when despite the advance of the German Empire, allied intervention of the US, Japan, UK, France, etc. the Soviets still won and did not lose sizeable territories - on the contrary, they were luckily stopped only at Warsaw in 1921. Give the ideological food to Gallia - you wil lspawn an even more terrifying behemoth of the united Gallic Empire.
2. Now, to Kusari. Certainly. Kusari could have used time to build up. BUT:
Kusari lost almost entire fleet to Gallia compared to Gallia losing but a fraction.
Kusari was a puppet. Puppets usually directly benefit their overlord at the expense of being weakened themselves. Kusari likely to have paid money to the Gauls, gave exclusive contracts, etc, because the Master desired so.
Kusarian Republic/Empire mess is similar to the current mess with Gallic Confederacy. If you apply political fractionamism logic to Gallia, do not forget Kusari.
Veterans of a small skirmish-like war with Rheinland are by war not on par with veterans of "the greatest conflict humanity has ever seen" in your own words. The old veterans of the Bretonia-Kusari war most likely perished, at least partially, with the obliteration of Kusari fleet by the Royal Gallic Navy in 817.
3. Diplomatic matters. Mind that you will be fighting on their territories, against bigger fleet, against better equipped more experienced and technologically advanced army, which is self-sufficient (Gallia has been isolated from the rest of Houses for centuries and learnt to exist by itself), and your supply lines through Taus will be vulnerable even to OC with GC who will surely use this opportunity. Bretonia still remembers the war with Kusari as well, they can team up against the Enclave, but unlikely to team up against the Confederacy that is their own safeguard against the Enclave.
The Enclave will not sit idle either. There are already RP moves to bring the Enclave closer to the Confederacy for the time of external war (again, internal issues can be resolved later). Even the hostility with the Enclave was enforced by the devs and not all in Confeds are really antagonising the Enclave. If the Enclave, for example, focuses on deteriorating your supply lines in Taus while the Confederation will be mostly repelling your advanced in Gallia and then advancing on Kusari - they de facto will not be even intercepting each other, having a good commensalism-style assistance. Combined fleets of those two will be enough to vanquish Kusarian advances.
But my biggest issue is the whole logic behind the war. Ofc, the gameplay benefits for pew-pew are obvious at the expense of ridiculous RP. An offensive war without quite good chance of success through very difficult for navigation and diplomatically dangerous region for a not quite good benefits. The risks do not worth the play. Instead of focusing on safe Sigmas to monopolise H-fuel production and economic expansion by either cooperation or going into confrontation with the GMG while Rheinland is too busy with internal war and unable to reply in any adequate manner, Kusari ventures into the region that is rich with minarals, surely, but has been in the past unsuccessfully contested by many faction ready to push back and actually use Kusari's failures to strike deep into its heart. I would repeat myself: good work, Kusari, you outplayed yourself. I would do a wargame in my uni software for that, but damn I am too lazy to adapt the software to space opera realities while I have my other research to pursue. Mark my word, tho, geopolitics (or stellapolitics in this case) are not on your side. Discovery being Discovery, however, we can apply altered Murphy's law to it: "Anything illogical that can happen, will happen".