(05-31-2023, 09:55 AM)St.Denis Wrote: The biggest problem with keeping Bases stocked with ores is there is a lack of people willing to mine.
Having more Storage, either having more modules per upgrade or making Storage Modules have more capacity, isn't going to solve the problem.
If you have a bigger Storage capacity it will just mean that the Ores may take a bit longer to be depleted, but you will then need to spend more time filling them back up to full.
The Barge Owners that like emptying these Bases will just have to learn that when the ore is gone, it is gone, and they will have to wait until someone spends the time filling them.
If they find a Base empty, they could always log a miner and help to fill them (this is an added bonus, in that the Ores they buy are, effectively, free).
This,
BUT if we had a buff on available storage space per module, or a super 100k capacity storage module available, or more slots per core- this would help massively due to the huge amount of space needed for keeping the base alive.
It takes longer to stock the base with supplies than it does the ore.
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If Barges are sufficiently viable for powertrading that they are becoming a problem for PoB storage purposes, that means the Barge is too good as that implies it is out-performing 5Ks, which is not the intent.
Thought I'd reply as a participant in filling Ulster in Dublin with ore, as well as emptying it with a 5ker.
I definitely don't think suggestion 1 and 2 is the way. Suggestion 3 and 4 might be in the right area, but I don't think it is a final solution either.
Increasing the storage won't really solve the problem in the current situation. Sure, it will take longer for one or two barges to empty it, but being the same amount of people filling it will take even longer as well. If there were more active players doing the mining/hauling then sure.
In any case, in the *current state* it is about supply/demand. What is regulated by that? The price. If it is so easy and profitable to empty a PoB with a Barge or two in a day, the price needs to be higher. All in balance of course, as you don't want to kill it off completely. Also if the selling price to a PoB is a bit higher, maybe more people would actively mine and thus keeping the PoB filled more effectively.
But like I said, finding the balance is key. Otherwise it would stop being emptied at all and miners + haulers would just haul directly to the NPC bases.
As mentioned, we then come to the question of ore selling prices on bases too. My example from above would be selling the Gold Ore on The Ring. I think we need to wait for the patch before looking at/suggesting changes. Since it will rework the economy anyway.
(05-31-2023, 11:14 AM)Haste Wrote: If Barges are sufficiently viable for powertrading that they are becoming a problem for PoB storage purposes, that means the Barge is too good as that implies it is out-performing 5Ks, which is not the intent.
I agree with Xenon that keeping our PoBs filled with miners + 5kers is hard work when emptied by barges. Which means we are looking to get a barge to work with the miner, for example.
(05-31-2023, 05:13 AM)Kalhmera Wrote: Eventually your going to run into the problem where people have everything they want or need.
I have a feeling that this is a point with most players. I am one such player.
(05-31-2023, 04:16 AM)Xenon Wrote: 2- Make the barges for supplying bases with ores, construction, or crafting materials only.
That's a terrible idea. Why remove trading from a trading ship? Plus, Barges aren't the issue here. It very much is keeping the bases stocked.
(05-31-2023, 06:41 AM)Mr.Jamison Wrote: People seem to forget that, supposedly, ore refineries for bases is coming sometime in the future?
This is also what I have heard. A good foil to the large giant flying tube that is the Barge.
If you'd like to balance the scales here, introducing the Barge means people are gonna empty bases a lot faster. This is a given, I myself like doing the Helium run between Penny and Sigma-59. It's a fun run and nets a decent profit.
In turn, there should have a system in place to refill or generate some sort of commodity to trade to compensate for the major ore purchases from Barge owners. Refinery is a good idea for this, and I suppose miners could help speed this process up. I know the Barge is the Barge, but since base owners are faced with such an impact, consideration should be given to them.
It's like introducing a powerful new weapon, without bringing in a way to defend yourself against it. I'm sure whoever is working on the refineries has strong plan to balance it with the Barge.
Also, some players are just impatient for this new addition to come along.
(05-31-2023, 11:14 AM)Haste Wrote: If Barges are sufficiently viable for powertrading that they are becoming a problem for PoB storage purposes, that means the Barge is too good as that implies it is out-performing 5Ks, which is not the intent.
Longer the run via trade lanes, more efficient barge runs are with ores. Barge > 5K.
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If someone is rich enough to buy a Barge, that person doesn't need to empty ores from the PoBs anymore. Remember barge owners, you are not playing alone on this server, but with other poorer people who fly smaller transports and need those credits more than you.
Besides, using multiple runs in smaller transports is healthier for the game because of the increased chance for potential pirates to interdict you, thus giving Bounty Hunters and Lawfuls reasons to show up as well.
If barge is an obvious meta, that means that it's broken. It was meant to be a niche side-grade to 5kers, not their ultimate replacement.
Another solution can also be labelling all barges as potential combat ships, like Bustards are thanks to their non-transport guns and shields, meaning they could become quite a jackpot for any pirate regardless of reasonability of demands. Do you want to fly a barge for printing money? Don't fly it alone.
Make POB's able to restrict clearance based on Ship Class
Allow for the collection of docking fee's (configurable)
Add the buy/sell feature so that base owners are actually collecting profit instead of the silly system now
Deny a buyer from purchasing more than x of any good from bases (configurable)
All of these are pretty easy to code, and now the market corrects itself. Better to give players options to deal with a situation than to take them away and/or restrict them further I've always felt.
p.s. and then add modules to Barges themselves. Mobile Mining Facility, hell yea
p.p.s allow for the purchase of additional module slots on Core 4+ bases at ridiculous cost, new money sink and fills valuable application
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(05-31-2023, 12:30 PM)Zentor Wrote: and now the market corrects itself.
Not really how markets tend to work. Why would PoB owners not want their entire stock bought up by a Barge? Not like the Barge pays less.
Why would I go out of my way to make my product get sold out slower with absolutely no benefit? Why would I "tax" a player I want to do business with?
Realistically, if the Barge is becoming a trade balance issue, we need to ensure it fulfils its actual role: a highly impractical bulk transport designed for people to have a gimmicky tool to work towards. It was never meant to beat 5ks at their own game.
First of all, a Barge is more efficient in trading, even though the real efficiency might just be "perceived". If given a choice of running a 5ker 6 times on the same route or a Barge once the average human will choose the Barge, especially as the slow docking speed is a miniscule factor across the whole trip. And once you practice for a bit you could become quite decent at quickdocking it.
Human psychology is a tricky subject. Most humans are generally impatient creatures and extremely bad at delaying gratification.
Making a Barge just a huge slow local hauler that helps ore and POB supply would instanty signal that a 5ker is a better choice for long-distance ore trading. Heck, you could even increase the barge cargo hold and it would only help with the ore supply.
Second, relying on "fairness" or honesty is a moot point. Someone who gets a Barge will soon want another one and will powertrade even more to get it. Again, human psychology yadda yadda.
When thinking of balance with Barges, one must take in to consideration a lot of facts.
Freighter - 650 hold - Impule speed @90 - Thruster speed 200 - Cruise speed 350 - Cost very cheap.
Transport - 2500 hold - Impulse speed @90 (takes seconds to achieve) - Thruster speed @150 (takes seconds to achieve) - Cruise speed 350 (takes seconds to achieve) - Costs about 14-15 million- almost 4 times more efficient than the Freighter.
Advanced Train - 5000 hold - Impulse speed @90 (takes seconds to achieve) - Thruster speed @150 (takes seconds to achieve) - Cruise speed 350 (takes seconds to achieve) - Costs @150-200 million - almost 2 times more efficient than the Transport and 8 almost times more than a Freighter.
Barge - 30000 hold - Impulse speed @24 (takes a few seconds to achieve) - Thruster speed @44 (takes a lot of seconds to achieve) - Cruise speed 100 (takes @160 seconds to achieve) - Costs 15 billion - Is definitely not 6x as efficient as a 5ker.
1) The Barge has no chance of running away from anything. It can't even dodge. Weapons on it are as much use as a chocolate fireguard, can kill NPCs if they come close enough.
2) If it gets hit by an NPC, which can happen often, it can end up anywhere between 10-75k away from where it started (in cruise, it takes 10 minutes to travel 60k).
3) If NPCs drop you out of Trade Lanes, it sometimes requires you to cruise to the next intersection as NPCs keep flying down the TL and hitting you whilst lining up with it.
4) NPCs have a habit of getting stuck at the start of TLs, with any other ship, you just steer around it and still dock with the TL. With the Barge, you have to move to the next one (see point 3).
5) And if you get dropped out of the TLs in asteroid fields then it can take a while to get out of it, see point 3).
6) Floating Ice/rocks have a habit of lifting the front of the Barge and making aligning with the TLs a bit of pain.
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