Aye, however look at it from the other side also. It can be construed as powerplaying to force your diplomatic status on other factions, and then we are back at square one. What I am saying is that I would very much like to also see why any faction would place the Phantoms as friendly or allied on their diplomacy sheets. If there is RP to back it up (I'm not sure about Outcasts and Phantoms in this case) then ok, but in the case of for example Corsairs who are known to (within RP) flaunt their pride and indiscriminately attack those they don't know... well, some RP would be in order I'd say. Doesn't need to be an official diplomatic statement. Can be a shady meeting with the Council of Elders or something, placed in a story somewhere.
As to why hasn't the diplomacy changed for most factions: Same reason why I only silently moved the Phantoms to unfriendly a couple months ago, after reading their revised status. Most of those factions retain their diplomacies from 4.83, when the Phantoms as an admin approved pvp force of doom were "fine". Obviously that changed since then, but there is still another thing. There is no action -> reaction to base off of, nigh none ingame data, and nearly no Phantom presence ingame to speak of. Most people simply don't know what to make of it, unless they specifically look for info in the RP forums. I am not sure if that is explicitly sought after or just a byproduct of the Phantoms relative inactivity, but yeah... IMO it's no excuse to let it lie because people don't remember it exists.
' Wrote:Aye, however look at it from the other side also. It can be construed as powerplaying to force your diplomatic status on other factions, and then we are back at square one. What I am saying is that I would very much like to also see why any faction would place the Phantoms as friendly or allied on their diplomacy sheets. If there is RP to back it up (I'm not sure about Outcasts and Phantoms in this case) then ok, but in the case of for example Corsairs who are known to (within RP) flaunt their pride and indiscriminately attack those they don't know... well, some RP would be in order I'd say. Doesn't need to be an official diplomatic statement. Can be a shady meeting with the Council of Elders or something, placed in a story somewhere.
As to why hasn't the diplomacy changed for most factions: Same reason why I only silently moved the Phantoms to unfriendly a couple months ago, after reading their revised status. Most of those factions retain their diplomacies from 4.83, when the Phantoms as an admin approved pvp force of doom were "fine". Obviously that changed since then, but there is still another thing. There is no action -> reaction to base off of, nigh none ingame data, and nearly no Phantom presence ingame to speak of. Most people simply don't know what to make of it, unless they specifically look for info in the RP forums. I am not sure if that is explicitly sought after or just a byproduct of the Phantoms relative inactivity, but yeah... IMO it's no excuse to let it lie because people don't remember it exists.
I dont know what PM's Virus or Kane sent, but I'm <strike>not sure</strike> unconvinced that we've forced diplomacy on anybody proactively. That said, your next paragraph answers the question as to why diplomacy hasn't changed, because we're invisible. People don't know how to treat a force of people that exist in hush tones and bed time stories to children who misbehave. Whether that's an actual problem or another aspect of the Phantoms as a faction and a force is debatable. You conclude that it is not acceptable, but I can find reasons as to why it would be.
Regarding your example of the Corsairs, that actually happened to me. I got jumped by three HAF a good while ago, ultimatums were issued and apologies recieved. The same thing also happened with the XA, which was sorted out ingame by roleplay, Ench to be exact, when Gloom was a Phantom. As is her style, its not documented on the forums following the school of thought that roleplay should not be forum based.
' Wrote:Aye, however look at it from the other side also. It can be construed as powerplaying to force your diplomatic status on other factions, and then we are back at square one. What I am saying is that I would very much like to also see why any faction would place the Phantoms as friendly or allied on their diplomacy sheets. If there is RP to back it up (I'm not sure about Outcasts and Phantoms in this case) then ok, but in the case of for example Corsairs who are known to (within RP) flaunt their pride and indiscriminately attack those they don't know... well, some RP would be in order I'd say. Doesn't need to be an official diplomatic statement. Can be a shady meeting with the Council of Elders or something, placed in a story somewhere.
As to why hasn't the diplomacy changed for most factions: Same reason why I only silently moved the Phantoms to unfriendly a couple months ago, after reading their revised status. Most of those factions retain their diplomacies from 4.83, when the Phantoms as an admin approved pvp force of doom were "fine". Obviously that changed since then, but there is still another thing. There is no action -> reaction to base off of, nigh none ingame data, and nearly no Phantom presence ingame to speak of. Most people simply don't know what to make of it, unless they specifically look for info in the RP forums. I am not sure if that is explicitly sought after or just a byproduct of the Phantoms relative inactivity, but yeah... IMO it's no excuse to let it lie because people don't remember it exists.
I am the leader of the longest running Corsair faction here, and I dont feel this is being forced on me. Someone give me a good reason why the Corsairs would have any conflict with the Phantoms? The Corsairs go after people they can pirate, so see any Phantom traders around lately? Dont think so, the Corsairs get absolutly nothing but trouble in looking for conflict with the Phantoms. There is zero upside for the Corsairs, so why would they do it?
Aside from that, the question has been asked of faction leaders in their feedback threads, and most of them, myself included who have responded, responded that they wish to keep thier diplomacies as is with the Phantoms. Those who dont want to keep thier relations with the Phantoms what they are, are free to change them. No one is being forced to do anything diplomacy wise, and I would like people to stop suggesting how my factions (the Brotherhood) diplomacy should read, that is up to me.
' Wrote:Obviously that changed since then, but there is still another thing. There is no action -> reaction to base off of, nigh none ingame data, and nearly no Phantom presence ingame to speak of. Most people simply don't know what to make of it, unless they specifically look for info in the RP forums. I am not sure if that is explicitly sought after or just a byproduct of the Phantoms relative inactivity, but yeah... IMO it's no excuse to let it lie because people don't remember it exists.
This is something I asked if I could remedy in the infocard chat. Unfortunately, I was told that I could not add any ingame rumors or allusions about the Phantoms. So, this is not entirely our fault.
On another note, as I said last night to Ktayn, in RP the Phantoms would take advantage of any faction they really could. To them, every pirate that doesn't have significant ties to a house or doesn't really pose a significant threat would really be a pawn to be taken advantage of, be it docking on their bases or giggling as they softened up a Navy or Police force. If they want us to be hostile, it's their RP responsibility to make it so, as, in-RP, we wouldn't really think too heavily about them and their wants. We would come to them completely ignorant to however a given faction feels and completely oblivious to their wants.
Though, I do understand the thoughts that we're hardly ever around to make those interactions that would possibly dictate diplomacy possible. I guess that just makes the interactions we do have all the more important.
EDIT: Mind, this is my opinion.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
Well, after reading a post on the ]bd['s feedback thread, I'm still trying to make heads and tails out of why the hell we would affiliate ourselves with the Phantoms. Of course, I havn't yet met them in Blood Dragon space, but still. I have been attacked by a certain phantom on my ]bd[ but I have yet to RP with them or sort out any kind of arrangment.
Would anybody like to be kind enough to explain this "relationship"? Or give me somebody that I can contact to sort out this kind of diplomacy...
Posts: 6,132
Threads: 310
Joined: Aug 2007
Staff roles: Story Dev Economy Dev
' Wrote:Empire name... Possible. Not much to replace it with, and "The Phantoms" as a full name seems.. Weak. the "C'Tan" will likely remain an "Empire" and probably control a planet or solar system a Galaxy over or so. Phantoms... Hm. Good point. Any suggestions? Name just sort has a nice ring to it as is. If you have anything better, I'd be glad to hear it.
The Phantom Enclave?
Anyway, I had a pretty nice encounter with the Phantoms a few days ago on my Buccaneer. We were pirating in Leeds when the general trader-whining was amped up by several magnitudes as a Phantom battlegroup marauded through. We had a fun time stealing the trader's money then watching them speed off up north into certain doom.
The Phantoms slowly worked their way down however, which led to them tearing a trader up one side and down the other in front of us. Of course things then got a little tense, with my lard-ass bomber being circled by several Ravens Talons, or Claws or whatever they are. Two Ravens and one Farmer bomber I think.
It was cool the way I was having to justify my continued survival (as I subtly lined myself up with the trade ring) followed by running for the hills. Good experiences so far.
Its now happening and theres been no change diplomatically that I know of other than the inception of some new phantom players who think it is within their RP.
Its now happening and theres been no change diplomatically that I know of other than the inception of some new phantom players who think it is within their RP.
Naturally I have concernas about that.
Virus is away at the moment leaving Bacon and I to run the show for a couple of days, so I am working on figuring this one out, have been since I saw Grimlys post. No one is fessing up to attacking him yet to me, but when I get home I am going to figure it out.
As you know, we have been trying to adress the concerns people have brought up in this thread. In attempting to do this, we have brought in five new members in the past few days, people we think represent some of the best rpers on the server from a diverse group of factions. We did thid to adress the comments about our low numbers, as well as to raise the already high standerd of rp in the Phantoms. Sometimes it takes a bit to get everyone one the same page.
Gentle, some more information on what happened would be very helpful. Either here or by pm could you give me what you know about the incident (ship name, or type at least, and where and when it tookplace) I will make sure it gets straightened out real quick.
' Wrote:I dont know what PM's Virus or Kane sent, but I'm <strike>not sure</strike> unconvinced that we've forced diplomacy on anybody proactively. That said, your next paragraph answers the question as to why diplomacy hasn't changed, because we're invisible. People don't know how to treat a force of people that exist in hush tones and bed time stories to children who misbehave. Whether that's an actual problem or another aspect of the Phantoms as a faction and a force is debatable. You conclude that it is not acceptable, but I can find reasons as to why it would be.
Regarding your example of the Corsairs, that actually happened to me. I got jumped by three HAF a good while ago, ultimatums were issued and apologies recieved. The same thing also happened with the XA, which was sorted out ingame by roleplay, Ench to be exact, when Gloom was a Phantom. As is her style, its not documented on the forums following the school of thought that roleplay should not be forum based.
That reminded me of something that might need to be looked into detail a bit.
Now while I'm no longer a member of that faction, I'm only speaking for myself here as usual.
At one side there's the Phantoms, an official faction, with its diplomacy chart there.
Now while one can say that it's appropriate, if not even required, for any faction with official status to actively maintain its diplomacy and do the talk and all, on the other side one has to take into account the roleplay aspect of that task.
The way I always saw it, the Phantoms were seen, in-RP, as McNeo put it there in a way.
Ghosts, legends, parts of scary bed-time stories, a piece of Sirius lore that is more myth than anything else.
Phantoms operating in the shadows, decieving others, plotting their destructive plots, never leaving any trace of their existence, that kind of thing.
Invisible aside from the Phantom Slayers, Terminator Lords, the Eidolon and Revenant if and when they operated in the open.
Hypothetically speaking from an in-RP perspective, would a group like that, one that is based on stealth, deciet, manipulation and so on, one about which you don't know where they come from, where they go, what their goals are, openly conduct some large-scale diplomacy?
Would you ever have a Phantom Ambassador set foot on Crete for example, to conduct talks with the Corsair Elders over some rum and cigars?
Hell, for that matter, would anyone expose himself willingly to some shadowy being of myth and legend, with only those myths and legends forming as good as the entire knowledge about the Phantoms there is, in-RP?
You see, due to the nature of the Phantoms as they are in Sirius, namely that shadowy organization, with little need for resources, for that matter, with no desire to control any resources or territory, no desire to expand and build bases in every corner of Sirius, there's not much of a need for any large-scale political babble diplomacy thing.
Now before any one goes "Wtf, no need for resources?" I'll just say that it doesn't matter what justification gets pulled out of whose rear-end.
Portal to Crathygtan space on the Revenant, some shady web of secret agents and contacts scattered throughout Sirius, doesn't matter.
The Phantoms have no goals in mind related to control of specific space or wealth of any kind.
There is, aside from maybe docking rights on a specific base, -nothing- I can think of at the time of writing this post that could warrant a diplomatic discussion,
and that one thing can be done with the individual Phantom when there is an encounter or something.
For whatever it's worth, whichever person encountered the ones that fly in space, in the open, would at best know one thing, aside from whatever they got to know about the individual Phantom they encountered:
They fight the "lawful" axis, they don't fight the "unlawful" axis as it's not a part of their agenda, whatever that really may be.
For Joe McUnlawful, that's one set of guns less pointed at him, one more set of guns pointed at whoever is or may be/will be/was in his way.
Any other thing related to diplomacy depends not on them, but on the factions and players they encounter.
[That Xeno incident McNeo mentioned, it didn't come as a result of Phantoms shooting the Xenos, as they've got no interest in them whatsoever.
Instead it went the other way around, and as it was only minor I took it upon myself to solve the "issue", mostly in-game and in-RP.]
As Lohingren said:
Quote:in my opinion Reavengitair the BD should be unfriendly if not hostile to their cause.
If not just for the fact they are Gaijin.
From my point of view, that's a good enough reason, and perfectly fine, in-line with whatever little I know about the Blood Dragons as a whole.
Afterall, aside from the "The enemy of my enemy..." etc. thing, the various small encounters with Phantoms and stuff like the Cambrdige MOX-bomb thing, what is it one can base his/her "diplomacy" on?
One's own character, or way one's faction would treat those shady figures, about whom as good as no facts are known.
Nothing substantial about their actual strengths and weaknesses as a whole.
So really, aside from that stuff above, what's left?
Myth and legend.
Now, "they" shoot whoever Joe McUnlawful shoots, and I'm sure Joe McUnlawful doesn't want to wake up one day to have a man clad in a suit of Power Armor standing at his doorstep, pointing at the corpses of Joe's family hanging from the ceiling before he rips out Joe's spine.
Then that man'd head back to the Hellbound, Vulcan, Temple of the Revenant, whatever, and create a painting of that scene with Joe's blood, using Joe's torn-off skin as a canvas.
Shiny.
Ain't that one kind of rumor that'd be around about the Ghosties?