My personal opinion is that SRP should only apply when requesting something outside of your ID range (LPI battleship, for example, or Republican Lux Liner) while still white/green cell. Putting that together with making the tech chart be all white/green would be a great way to go, I guess?
It's all been said before though, so just kinda repeating what I think.
' Wrote:My personal opinion is that SRP should only apply when requesting something outside of your ID range (LPI battleship, for example, or Republican Lux Liner) while still white/green cell. Putting that together with making the tech chart be all white/green would be a great way to go, I guess?
It's all been said before though, so just kinda repeating what I think.
Very bad way to go. If all is white even more skypefriendship combinations will appear in game.
Edran Vayrn may be your camera ship is not for PvP but your faction have several SRPed capital ships witch are so it is kinda moot point. Moot point will be to tell me that they are only for RP or mainly for RP too. SRPs are and should be for both- RP and PvP- if they are well written and bullet proof why not? Of course super OP combinations should be avoided. The question here is if there is any option to make them open again -putting all the weight on the admins shoulders or to remove them all-together. Both are bad. So some other system would be better. Brainstorm a bit on that matter not on CBF ID or Edran Vayrn non-pvp capitals and camera ship.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
I've read the posts through all of this from last time, and there were basically the same points being made over and over. Don't ask me to point them out; do me a favour and look for yourself.
' Wrote:It's all been said before though, so just kinda repeating what I think.
I agree, this thread has too many people barging in throwing up their opinions without actually reading the posts that came before it. I'm afraid I'll have to cut down on my apparently overwhelmingly intelligent paragraphs and use smaller words. I think the discussion could be greatly benefited if everyone would just stop, read a few things from before, skim through, figure out where we are, then post instead of blam cynical, ignorant and generally insensitive commentary. By the way:
Quote:cyn·ic
'noun
1. a person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view.
Quote:cyn·i·cal
'adjective
1. like or characteristic of a cynic; distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2. showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, especially by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3. bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.
Sorry for posting off-topic, but someone had to say it. I really feel like just going back, taking what I've said before and reposting it; it's not like anyone but a few of you veterans would yell at me for spamming, because to be honest, you wouldn't know that it was ever posted. If we could get back to trying to solve the issue, I think we'll be just dandy. Lets focus less on the examples and more on the subject.
' Wrote:What about SRP to work within green cell or white cell but outside ID ship restrictions?
E.g. a cruiser with Pirate ID, special operative ID heading up a marauder/pirate faction as a mobile base of operation.
Pirating capitals is something the mod creator mentioned as being one of the long established traditions that couldn't be undone. (I don't have a link to hand, I think it was in admin forum anyway).
I suppose I mention it because I think there have to be some limits as regards what is or is not going to be allowed here. Not everyone will get what he or she wants. The real issue is: who is prepared to be that person? Or, as my boss puts it, don't ask a question if you're not prepared for an answer you may not like.
Clearly this issue is a source of frustration for players:
' Wrote:[font=Comic Sans Ms]Isn't roleplaying fictional in the first place? Why can't-
You know what?
Arguing against the devs and administration is a waste of time. We the general community are happy with the rules and decisions that have been made by them. For if we truly were upset and took issue with inane rules, the "Your roleplaying is out of roleplay" attitude, the privilages the old guard are which newbies can never hope for, we'd just leave.
The frustration is not just to do with SRPs, as one can see; there are other, deeper issues at stake here, which is the perception of the server administrators as part of the problem. This I can appreciate; too often we are like plumbers running around fixing leaks when what we should be doing is installing a jacuzzi.
What are the "leaks"? A combination of a rule system that is labyrinthine, a tendency among players to win at all costs (even through the rules process), a resistance to change but also an equally entrenched resistance to accept what has been established as the way in which things are done, and the consequences of the lack of a PvP server, along with an increasingly shrinking global community of players who have vastly different expectations of a Freelancer server.
The issue of preventing newer players from enjoying privileges granted in the past to players of longer tenure is one that will affect us until the cows come home. People need to accept that things change; rules change; the server changes. Look at how things developed here.
One example: the old rule 5.4
Attacking characters of level 29 and below is prohibited. Characters under level 30 can be attacked only
(1) if grouped with another character of level 30 or higher, (2) if spotted on site of a clan battle, and
(3) by players of level 29 or lower.
You can see how that rule came to be what it is today from that version (the post I took that from is around December 2007). Obviously, the benefits that people got through having SRPs approved in the past is one which more recent players feel aggrieved at. There is a sense that people feel they have missed out, and are forced to use the tradesman's entrance and eat the lesser meat. That lack of fairness is an issue that needs addressing, with consideration for the players who had those SRPs as well.
Now I know what way this will go - they won't want to relinquish their priveleges, so the only possible alternative is to make SRPs open again. That is what players will want. And if the players want it, they must have it. I wonder, though, if the players anticipate how this affects new players who encounter these SRP characters in game, and apply, and get rejected. They may demonstrate poor grammar, or worse, poor spelling. They may not be able to deconstruct narratives and write something entertaining, adult and believable. But that process is not roleplaying.
Writing is not the same as acting, and roleplaying is acting. Unfortunately you have to type text to roleplay here. The creative act of literary composition does not favour many elements of acting, such as improvisation or reacting. Special roleplays are, to my way of thinking, more akin to a creative writing exercise than an immersive roleplaying exercise. It might be pertinent to examine the recruitment process for the Lane Hacker faction to see what potential truly immersive roleplaying has for people who want a real challenge on Discovery - that is, to think, act and live as their character and face real risks - ie to have people react to you and find that you cannot control where your story goes.
Personally I don't understand how a good character story needs to be reflected in a ship, but clearly for some players the wide range of ships and IDs and weapons that are currently allowable are still not enough. Some of the most well-established and entertaining characters on the server do not make their presence felt through an unusual combination of guns - they do it through characterisation.
It's not our job to tell people how to play, but to ensure that the playing of the game is fair. However, there was a time here when the members (the lifeblood of the community) could discuss matters civilly on the forums and people could not get all defensive because they were being told that what they were doing was out of roleplay.
Sadly I don't think such a manner of interaction is possible in the current climate. Some players feel aggrieved that they have to follow rules at all. Others want a system that is more democatic and transparent.
How would you respond to something like this?
Quote:I recently acquired a new craft, one **name removed**, whom, by Roleplay, should essentially fly in, mumble some vaguely threatening comment, and vaporize whomever is on his bad list, which is three-fourths of Sirius. He avoids all faction alignment, and hence requires something more universal than a Xeno ID (Since they're targets as well), as his scope is the whole if Sirius, AKA a Terrorist ID. Obviously, this is a tad hard to get, as it's on the Battlestar, hence, I throw myself on your mercy and beg for a Terrorist ID. I don't know if you're allowed to do this, so I apologize if I'm asking for something illegal, but I'm assuming it's been left in-game for a reason...
Thank you,
****name removed*****
One response is
Quote:Yes **name removed** is a level headed player
and that is that. An approval based on knowing someone (not friendship mind) but on knowing and trusting.
So what has changed? There is little trust left, most likely. When SRPs were running, the people who decided them weren't trusted; we possibly didn't trust all players; everyone's motives are questionable.
I want people to play the part of someone in the Discovery universe. I also want the combat engine of the mod to be fair. It is balanced for people to use specific combinations of technology, and nothing else. I also want playhers to be able to play the game without having to come to the forums, or to have their creativity as roleplayers deemed secondary to other people's ability to compose narratives.
' Wrote:I want people to play the part of someone in the Discovery universe.
Maybe have people answer a few ooc questions in a SRP request.
How will the approval of your request benefit the community?
What steps will you take ensure that other players enjoy roleplaying with you?
What is the biggest long-term goal you aim to accomplish with this character if your request is approved?
I think well-conceived, honest answers to those questions that don't seem unstable should be criteria enough for a SRP approval along with testimonials from people who have roleplayed with the character in space with standard equipment. Creative writing could add to the amount of information available about a character, but a lack of literature certainly would not hurt the viability of someone's request.
Well. I hope that suggestion causes less flames than my previous one. :cool:
' Wrote:The gentleman doth have a point there, lads. The fancy stuff ain't around that often usually. And the stuff that is around often but falls in the SRP area ain't all that fancy.
By the time I got what I wanted way longer ago I just couldn't be bothered with it anymore because it wasn't worth the effort. Most of the extra-fancy stuff ain't worth the effort to be honest. And even if it is worth the effort, it loses its appeal in a way most of the time, once you have it. Because when you already have it, you're at a road's end. That road that led you to getting what you were after. So with that road ending, you can conjure yourself another, or not. Generally the fancy stuff tends to stay at a dead-end, stuck in a limited role (bar exceptions).
If that is the case, then there should be no qualms about opening up SRP because "everyone becomes special".:cool:
' Wrote:The issue of preventing newer players from enjoying privileges granted in the past to players of longer tenure is one that will affect us until the cows come home. People need to accept that things change; rules change; the server changes. Look at how things developed here.
You can see how that rule came to be what it is today from that version (the post I took that from is around December 2007). Obviously, the benefits that people got through having SRPs approved in the past is one which more recent players feel aggrieved at. There is a sense that people feel they have missed out, and are forced to use the tradesman's entrance and eat the lesser meat. That lack of fairness is an issue that needs addressing, with consideration for the players who had those SRPs as well.
Now I know what way this will go - they won't want to relinquish their priveleges, so the only possible alternative is to make SRPs open again. That is what players will want. And if the players want it, they must have it. I wonder, though, if the players anticipate how this affects new players who encounter these SRP characters in game, and apply, and get rejected. They may demonstrate poor grammar, or worse, poor spelling. They may not be able to deconstruct narratives and write something entertaining, adult and believable. But that process is not roleplaying.
Writing is not the same as acting, and roleplaying is acting. Unfortunately you have to type text to roleplay here. The creative act of literary composition does not favour many elements of acting, such as improvisation or reacting. Special roleplays are, to my way of thinking, more akin to a creative writing exercise than an immersive roleplaying exercise. It might be pertinent to examine the recruitment process for the Lane Hacker faction to see what potential truly immersive roleplaying has for people who want a real challenge on Discovery - that is, to think, act and live as their character and face real risks - ie to have people react to you and find that you cannot control where your story goes.
Personally I don't understand how a good character story needs to be reflected in a ship, but clearly for some players the wide range of ships and IDs and weapons that are currently allowable are still not enough. Some of the most well-established and entertaining characters on the server do not make their presence felt through an unusual combination of guns - they do it through characterisation.
It's not our job to tell people how to play, but to ensure that the playing of the game is fair. However, there was a time here when the members (the lifeblood of the community) could discuss matters civilly on the forums and people could not get all defensive because they were being told that what they were doing was out of roleplay.
Sadly I don't think such a manner of interaction is possible in the current climate. Some players feel aggrieved that they have to follow rules at all. Others want a system that is more democatic and transparent.
How would you respond to something like this?
One response is
and that is that. An approval based on knowing someone (not friendship mind) but on knowing and trusting.
So what has changed? There is little trust left, most likely. When SRPs were running, the people who decided them weren't trusted; we possibly didn't trust all players; everyone's motives are questionable.
I want people to play the part of someone in the Discovery universe. I also want the combat engine of the mod to be fair. It is balanced for people to use specific combinations of technology, and nothing else. I also want playhers to be able to play the game without having to come to the forums, or to have their creativity as roleplayers deemed secondary to other people's ability to compose narratives.
Possibly a few errors in what I wrote.
Firstly, you seem to give off this vibe that you want fairness, and then you talk about how current SRP's remaining are going to be an issue, but the only solution to establish fairness that you propose is opening up SRP's again because current owners of SRP's will not want to lose them? (Just checking I got this right.)
Secondly, writing role-play with someone, such as a meeting, or a co-joined story, and not collaborating on what the outcome will be beforehand, is role-play. So are transmissions. They are written forms of role-play, and not recognising this is a failing for whoever that cannot see this.
Thirdly, make the system transparent. I proposed a system in the past that would show when the Administrators were doing work, and coincidentally when they were not, would assure people their SRP was being worked on, and would allow cross-referencing of SRP's to maintain a certain standard and be fair.
' Wrote:Also, SRPs come back BUT only if any SRP'd ship suffers a permadeath on destruction.
In my opinion, that is a little too much. I think having SRPs permanently die, at the player's whim, in RP events is entirely appropriate, though. A compilation of the lifetime of a retired SRP can serve as a model for new hopefuls to follow.
In overall I'll agree with you Athenian, I'll just comment your last part which is I think is the most interesting.
The forums became necessary because of the current climate that is felt ingame. The faction leaders giving out tech permissions now want to know to who they give the permission to (which can end up in biased decisions for a few.) simply because the PLAYERS couldn't prove to have common sense. Oh how many times did the Zoners get yelled at because a pirate used zoner gunboat guns for piracy.
Thus, people became suspicious and require a minimum of work to give out their tech and I don't think such approvals will ever be done ingame (and timezones won't help either).
On the topic of SRPs, I have never seen SRPs as something elitist but rather as a seal of quality. For me, it means I can expect quality roleplay from said ship.
I do have one myself, Kate.Miller. And I have always did my best to provide the best I could do to those I encounter, in roleplaying if it's what they want (most of the time), in pvp if it's what they're looking for (which I suck at:D). When the admin team approved my request, I considered it as them giving me their trust and always use what I was given properly and never abuse it and it's something I still stick to and I hope all other players who were allowed to have SRP ships follow a similar thinking.
SRPs are a rare occurence among the swarm of online ships, when people encounter an SRP ship, it's a duty to make it worth it and they should stay rare.
' Wrote:If that is the case, then there should be no qualms about opening up SRP because "everyone becomes special".:cool:
Firstly, you seem to give off this vibe that you want fairness, and then you talk about how current SRP's remaining are going to be an issue, but the only solution to establish fairness that you propose is opening up SRP's again because current owners of SRP's will not want to lose them? (Just checking I got this right.)
Given the choice, to establish fairness for newer players, would you choose
a) all SRPs are removed
or
b) re-open SRPs?
Quote:Secondly, writing role-play with someone, such as a meeting, or a co-joined story, and not collaborating on what the outcome will be beforehand, is role-play. So are transmissions. They are written forms of role-play, and not recognising this is a failing for whoever that cannot see this.
No one ever loses a character in these situations. They are effectively consequnce-free. If someone writes "I shot your brains out", you can claim they are powergaming.
Quote:Thirdly, make the system transparent. I proposed a system in the past that would show when the Administrators were doing work, and coincidentally when they were not, would assure people their SRP was being worked on, and would allow cross-referencing of SRP's to maintain a certain standard and be fair.
I don't favour any SRP system at present.
' Wrote:In my opinion, that is a little too much. I think having SRPs permanently die, at the player's whim, in RP events is entirely appropriate, though. A compilation of the lifetime of a retired SRP can serve as a model for new hopefuls to follow.
This haggling over the rules is liable to be done by every player.
SRPs are not intended as part of the mod. The mod is not balanced for them. For every plus, there has to be a minus. An SRP is quite a big plus. So why no minus? If a character's life is to be believable, it must have a lifespan not determined by that character. Otherwise it is just another special toy that others don't have.
Even terrorists die sometimes but I have yet to see a post wherein someone says "cancel my SRP".
' Wrote:In overall I'll agree with you Athenian, I'll just comment your last part which is I think is the most interesting.
The forums became necessary because of the current climate that is felt ingame. The faction leaders giving out tech permissions now want to know to who they give the permission to (which can end up in biased decisions for a few.) simply because the PLAYERS couldn't prove to have common sense. Oh how many times did the Zoners get yelled at because a pirate used zoner gunboat guns for piracy.
Thus, people became suspicious and require a minimum of work to give out their tech and I don't think such approvals will ever be done ingame (and timezones won't help either).
On the topic of SRPs, I have never seen SRPs as something elitist but rather as a seal of quality. For me, it means I can expect quality roleplay from said ship.
I do have one myself, Kate.Miller. And I have always did my best to provide the best I could do to those I encounter, in roleplaying if it's what they want (most of the time), in pvp if it's what they're looking for (which I suck at:D). When the admin team approved my request, I considered it as them giving me their trust and always use what I was given properly and never abuse it and it's something I still stick to and I hope all other players who were allowed to have SRP ships follow a similar thinking.
SRPs are a rare occurence among the swarm of online ships, when people encounter an SRP ship, it's a duty to make it worth it and they should stay rare.
It's the idea that other players are a "swarm" or some kind of background colour that I disagree with. They all follow the hard-coded rules governing IDs, ships, and weapons, so why should there be any exceptions?
Would you be prepared to delete that ship if requested, or to abide by a permadeath mechanism?
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