It's not about making the Brigands anti-royal force. It's about the Legion's getting allied with the Brigands, thus making both structures stronger.
The Brigands are criminals. But as criminals, they're anti-royalist. Also, in-RP we're former GRN, so running to the Council, the ones the legionnaires have been killing for ages isn't usually a good plan.
We know they Brigands aren't revolutionaries. Sure, we'd all love to pirate the Council, but we're on good terms with them, their revolution has helped a lot. The Legion has to get used to new environment. So the Legion has to change its attitude to survive.
The Brigands, as you may notice, had a base nearby, where the Legion could get very fast. The legionnaires needed a hideout. So now the Legion assists the Brigands by turning them into organised force and helping them in their pirate raids. But it uses Brigand ships and equipment to get their revenge upon GRN (that's our small addition to Brigand RP).
Technically, the RP is similar to normal Brigands, but with a few additions:
1) The legionnaires believe that they were betrayed by the Royal Navy (although the Legion itself was accused of treachery).
2) The legionnaires just have to do what they do in order to survive. But they live on Brigand bases, so after some time of co-existing they get used to the new way of life.
' Wrote:Brigands are the largest organized criminal organization in Gallia.
This is debatable. Unione Corse might be larger than the Brigands. And if you consider the Maquis a criminal organization (the GRN most certainly does), they might be larger as well. I'd reword this to; "The Brigands, like the Unione Corse, are one of the largest organized criminal organizations in Gallia."
' Wrote:They are behind every illegal activity and are constantly growing. Most Brigands are former police or military, like from the LE, and they aid the Council, Maquis and Unione Corse.
Behind every illegal activity.. Now that is just complete bullocks. The Unione Corse are behind far more than the Brigands. You are mostly pirates with some black market activities, but the Unione Corse has far more non-pirate activities than the Brigands do. The Maquis are also considered illegal in Gallia, and do more than simply piracy. The Brigands also aren't involved in every (or even most) of the UC's and Maquis' activities.
As for former police; Yes. Former military? No. Nothing in Brigands' lore says they come from ex-military. There are certainly a few ex-military in the Brigands, but an extreme few. Brigands are primarily former corrupted police officers, and lifelong law breakers.
This is the first sentence of the Brigand infocard;
Quote:Gallic Brigands, otherwise known as the Free Brigands of Gallia, is a loosely affiliated union of experienced criminals and other antisocial elements, many of whom are former Police pilots.
On the 'they aid the Council, Maquis, and Unione Corse. Rarely. Very rarely, and not for idealism, but for profit. Here is another part of the infocard;
Quote:While the Gallic Brigands avoid political struggle and have no sympathy for the ideals of the Council, it is widely known that they have indirectly assisted Maquis and Council in various operations of the Second Gallic War, including the liberation of Marne.
The Brigands do not share the idealism of the Council and Maquis. Only working with them when it is profitable to do so. Unione Corse is the exception, as they don't have ideals other than profit-making, which is why they work together heavily. Coordinating with the Council and Maquis day in and day out without some kind of profit motive is -not- the Brigands. If you want to be the Council or Maquis.. Be the Council or Maquis.
' Wrote:The rest of the Brigands have been overhauled and are now trained more effectively to defend themselves against Royal Forces - and ambush their stations, traders and military.
Another piece of the infocard;
Quote:While Brigands sustain some sort of romantic aura of medieval highway bandits who robbed the rich and gave to the poor, they often do the opposite, robbing smaller shipping companies in favor of larger corporations and their Police protectors.
The Brigands try to avoid attacking corporations with police escorts. What makes you think they will go after military targets? Especially when they aren't supplied as well, and have inferior vessels, and numbers, to the military? This is like saying the Liberty Rogues go after the Liberty Navy. They don't, it doesn't make sense, and it completely contradicts their lore. You say the LE overhauled the Brigands as a whole? I highly doubt they'd bring in an ex-military group and trust them right off the bat, let alone let them take over the entire Brigands. And they certainly wouldn't give up piracy to fight a battle with the Royal Navy that gets them nothing. These are criminals out for profit, not idealists out to topple the regime. Again, if you want to be Maquis/Council, use the Maquis/Council ID.
And Catburt.. Being a criminal does -not- make you anti-royalist. There are plenty of pirates out that are pro-government. Unione Corse for the Gallic example. They work with us heavily, and the current structure actually allows them more freedom for their unlawful activity than if the Council were to take over. They like us being in charge. Then look at the Liberty Rogues. They certain prefer the Liberty Government staying in charge over Liberty than the Rheinlanders taking over. Bundschuh the same. They would rather the Rheinland government, which they consider corrupt, stay in charge, than Liberty take over, which is why they aid RM against LN if they find themselves at the scene of a battle. Most pirates prefer the current government stay in charge, rather than a new one replace it. Pirates are -not- idealists, they are for-profit thugs. When the government goes down, a new one comes up. But change isn't good for a pirate, because change means whatever contacts they had, and whatever under-the-table deals they had are no longer valid.
Moved to RP Factions until LE has the 500mil for an official faction request. Let me know when/if you do, and I can move it back.
I'm truly not sold on the whole Brigands thing. Council accepts people who used to shoot at it almost compulsively, at least half of their space forces have that background. Plus, the "they had a base nearby" really doesn't do it for me, in-lore the Maquis ran all the way from the Core Worlds to Languedoc when the Gallic Liberation Movement was getting boxed. If you can run with functional ships, you can run for at least a system.
"Getting revenge on the GRN" is not really a "small addition" to Brigand RP. It's a "instead of opportunistic criminals with a tinge of romanticism, we're now dark and murderous revolutionaries" change. It'd be like making the Bundschuh betray Rheinland to Liberty (say "Cloppenburg" at me and your days are numbered). But that "small addition" wasn't enough, was it...
The whole "hi guys I own the Brigands" thing. Doing it OOC to revitalize the faction is one thing, doing it in RP is... well, you basically shotgunned an entire NPC faction with your little band and told them you were in charge. Seriously. Listen to yourselves. This is insane.
Right now, all I see going for you is that you have more people than the FBG. But that's not saying much.
' Wrote:the SRP isn't for the thought of 'OMG BS AND FANCY CLEAN SHIPS'
you can hardly roleplay with a battleship when you dont have one. its crucial to the whole situation. the rest of the ships will be severely limited, owing to the fact that, in-RP, we have barely any.
how will you maintain these ships? IRL a friend of mine bought two airplanes on the cheap, hoping that he could get the parts to fix one up. nada. no spares available, and this is peace time with a friendly country (uk/australia) how are you going to fix a battleship up when your persona non grata in the supplies dept?
is the battleship only for roleplay? is it absolutely necessary? perhaps if you rp'd that "we've not managed to get the guns on-line yet" and fly without.
' Wrote:we're anti-royalist, obviously. otherwise, we'd hardly be brigands in the first place.
you're anti-royalist?
' Wrote:[size=12]The former members of the Royalist Group "Legion des Damnes", that have been dramatically decimated by the Gallic Royal Navy from over 100 thousand to only 2000 people , have managed to become Brigands when they were searching for a new home.
but your not being brigands, you're ex-grn members?
why would the brigands automatically accept these ex-grn pilots?
can you give a short paragraph on what caused the rift between the GRN and LD?
' Wrote:as for the other brigand faction, its not us. why not tell the LaBrise family to just join the [UC] instead of trying themselves? they're different too. a different entity, with its own roleplay and character
you mis-understand me. i'm trying to help you iron out the wrinkles in your FCR, so that it will be approved by one and all. as a veteran at FCR's i can easily spot the pitfalls.
and yeah i DO think the La Brise family should join the UC group, and be a sub-group with an equal say. thats how <strike>we </strike> they work in cosa nostra... it means that there is more scope for 'family vendettas and taking over the uc'
' Wrote:ranks? not my department. but i have no doubt they're all needed.
how? they're now brigands... (or are they?) if i were in the shoes of a regular LD pilot, i'd be saying 'Lads, its the officers fault that we're in this mess, i say scrag them and lets join the brigands.' the officers would find it hard to hold onto their ranks after uprooting the men from their lives and families. personally speaking, in that situation i'd punch the first officer who insisted i saluted him. all brigands, all equal.
or is this a rogue GRN group opposed to the war in the taus? cos thats cool too.
' Wrote:It's not about making them anti-royal force. It's about getting allied with the Brigands, thus making them stronger. They are criminals. But as criminals, they're anti-royalist. Also, in-RP we're former GRN, so running to the Council, the ones you've been killing for ages isn't usually a good plan.
actually, it would be a better plan. you would have ships, technology, intelligence, personal knowledge about the commanders of the opposing forces that would give them valuable assistance.
' Wrote:We know they Brigands aren't revolutionaries. Sure, we'd all love to pirate the Council, but we're on good terms with them, their revolution has helped a lot. The Legion has to get used to new environment.
The Brigands, as you may notice, had a base nearby, which the legion could get to very fast. They needed a hideout. So now the Legion assists the Brigands, turning them into organised force. But it uses Brigand ships and equipment to get their revenge upon GRN (that's our small addition to Brigand RP).
but, as i said above, the brigands are pirates. they don't want organisation, especially opposed from without. they are pirates, and believe not in the rule of law, and conduct unbecoming an officer, but in the rule of strength; they take things away from people by force. why are they going to respect a chain of command? what is in it for them? and what is in it for you? the closest base? clavius said 'the brigands is not for us'.
the UC would respect a chain of command, its family after all. the brigands wont. if you lose the chain of command and have three ranks, much more plausible.
I see several ways forward for you:
1. as a rogue GRN unit, refusing to take part in the atrocities; interesting. plenty of scope for interesting roleplay.
2. as a rogue grn unit that has joined the council; plausible. you'd at least have access to the shipline (im sure the council shoots down the occasional enemy ship that you could cannibalise for parts)
3. as a rogue GRN unit imposing military discipline on the brigands (i.e. changing the RP of the entire NPC faction); weak. Especially due to this:
' Wrote:Effectively immediately, applications to become an official faction will be limited to one player faction per NPC faction and thus there will be only one official player faction per ID. Official player factions must act in a manner that complies with the NPC faction.
Other player factions applying for official status may use a generic ID.
This applies to all new applications.
Existing player factions are not affected by this change.
(my emphasis) if you want to be official then you need to rock up with generic id's. freelancer?
4. As grn unit that tries to impose discipline on the brigands and then finds themselves becoming no better than pirates: excellent. players can have arguments about 'your no better than me, capitane', you get to keep the ranks, but they become largely irrelvant, you would have to adopt brigand shipline though.
as yet, there is no official brigands faction (apologies if there is, just update wiki plox), but to give the LD control over the brigands would be unfair to a hypothetical group of people who wanted to be just brigands in the future.
' Wrote:As for former police; Yes. Former military? No. Nothing in Brigands' lore says they come from ex-military. There are certainly a few ex-military in the Brigands, but an extreme few. Brigands are
primarily former corrupted police officers, and lifelong law breakers.
Well adding a new RP Story to the Lore it changes it for good.There is nothing bad in changing loose written on paper lore with something real witch exist in the server - like LE. The Brigands did not exist as player group in the server reality- they exist on paper only -why should a group of people who want to make the real existence of brigands with a bit different ideas should be flamed for their ways? It really makes me laugh when you say that brigands would do this or this- they cannot do nothing since they are not presented by any real players.
' Wrote:Be the Council or Maquis.
Obviously they don't want to be Council or Maquis - they chose Brigands.
' Wrote:And they certainly wouldn't give up piracy to fight a battle with the Royal Navy that gets them nothing. These are criminals out for profit, not idealists out to topple the regime.
Indeed where LE said that they would give up piracy, quite the opposite,read the first post on the topic.
' Wrote:And Catburt.. Being a criminal does -not- make you anti-royalist. There are plenty of pirates out that are pro-government. Unione Corse for the Gallic example.
It is moot argument- deb/tizona still one. Being a criminal does not make you royalist/government supporter. There are plenty of pirates out that are anti-government - Line Hackers,Mollys etc.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
' Wrote:Well adding a new RP Story to the Lore it changes it for good.There is nothing bad in changing loose written on paper lore with something real witch exist in the server - like LE.
You're really not helping here.
"Breaking news: I assassinated the entire Liberty government, causing the Liberty Navy to run amok! By logical extension the LNS are now allowed to shoot whatever they want as Liberty struggles with anarchy!"
Adding new lore is not always a good thing. Sometimes it's a very, very bad thing. Is what the LE proposed as bad as sending Liberty into anarchy? No, certainly not. However, it's still ridiculous. Chanting "evolution of RP" doesn't allow you to rape and mutilate existing canon.
Thus far, it looks like you feel you are entitled to do whatever is best for you. Pro tip: it doesn't work that way.
Sovereign your argument is moot one too-
you present power-gaming scenario witch is not the case because power gaming is impossible when nobody play as brigand.In liberty there are active players aka- people who represent the said factions.
In the brigand case there are not such people so I really don't think that is case here.
However,
Realist tip:
it's still ridiculous- indeed it is ridiculous how the GRN members try to bring moot non-existent RP arguments to justify that they OORP don't like LE people.Please stop,think a bit, and try again.
(10-09-2013, 10:51 AM)Knjaz Wrote: Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)
Quote:The Brigands are known to be the largest criminal organization in Gallia.
That's taken from the Wiki-page, Gallic Brigands (NPC faction).
Quote: As a pirate organization, the Brigands are involved in some way involved in nearly every illicit activity in Gallia. Rumored to control over three quarters of the black market, they ruthlessly enforce this monopoly.
Again, the Brigand wiki-page.
As for the part that states that the Brigands do everything only for profit, then I agree. But it would be good for them to get some former Royal Navy pilots into their ranks. More strength means greater profit. At least that's how I see it.
Also, the primary objective of the Legion is to re-gain its former power. For that goal they would get the cash by any means necessary. That's why Brigands fit in perfectly, in my opinion. That means that they wouldn't attack the Royal Navy on purpose. That's more about their attitude and sudden in-game RP-interactions.
In addition, the battle didn't end by the Legion defeating the Brigands. No one managed to prevail, although the legion was crippled badly. Furthermore, there were Royal forces coming after them, so the alliance would be the only chance for them to survive.
However I admit that some parts of the story are to be overhauled. We can settle this, I believe. Thanks for the input.
Now, answering to Coin's post.
The SRP matter is not solved yet, personally I'm satisfied with my Brigand ship. After all, the Brigands are are neutral to the Council, and the Council have their shipyards. A deal could be arrranged.
I assume the story has enough information about the thing that caused the misunderstanding. By anti-royalist we mean the Legion's negative attitude to the Navy (they consider themselves betrayed). Again, I would suggest to read the story. Why would Trent got accepted by the Lane Hackers in vanilla? Thay said: "The enemy of our enemy is our friend" (or something close to that).
I don't know if FBG are official, so I can't judge about that.
As for the Brigands respecting the chain of command... The former Royal Officers are definitely stronger in combat, they're well-trained. I guess that means "strong". By the way, RL-pirates followed the chain of command too, the aura just appeared somehow.
As I have said, we're re-considering the faction history now. Also, I've changed some of my previous posts, that might help. Thank you for the input.
P.S. Sorry, you were posting too much, so I couldn't answer all the points you've brought up. Anyway, all the input will be considered. I can't just re-write it in an hour without considering so I might be able to give better explanation tomorrow.
I dunno, I think that charging in and saying "we took over the Brigands, anyone who doesn't do exactly as we say gets shot" is powergaming. Not powergaming against anyone in particular, but powergaming nonetheless. What if I said that I was actually immortal and could escape anything? It's not powergaming against anyone in particular, but it's still powergaming.
You're talking to the GRN| high command member who was supportive of the LE and trying to help them find a viable niche to fill, right from the outset. When I first saw this thread, I still wanted to help you- but in order to do that, I needed to get the point across that this idea is indeed crazy. Trying to help does not always mean spouting sunshine and rainbows.
Instead, you've told everyone in this thread that they're wrong, and that it's perfectly okay to mutilate canon for your own purposes. Keep this up, you won't have to worry about tinfoil hat conspiracies trying to shut you down, they'll let you do that yourselves.
I will respond to Catbert shortly, he seems significantly more reasonable.
EDIT @ Catbert:
It's good that you're open to changing things. No, the FBG are not official, I actually don't remember the last time I saw one. Probably more than a month ago.
My comment about the chain of command was not that the Brigands wouldn't have one, but that giving yourselves absolute power over all other Brigands is a bit much. "Alliance of convenience" is very different from "all your base are belong to us". Slowly achieving dominance by simply being better than your peers is far more plausible, though still has the scent of Mary Sue about it. You bring firepower to the table, that's your main angle, right? Accept that as career soldiers, charisma and determination are a lot more likely skills than cutthroat capitalist intuition, accounting, and all sorts of other things that make for good Brigand leaders. Being the sword of the Brigands is a far more likely path than dominating them in their own arena- if you're such good fighters and still better than the Brigands at being Brigands, I'll wave "Mary Sue" at you a few more times. That's not to say that I don't think that given your scenario, you might have someone important hang out with the important Brigands- however, a band of refugees (though very well trained and well armed) taking absolute power over an entire NPC faction is something I just can't buy.
I eagerly await your revisions. Like I said, I really do want to see the LE find a suitable home- but existing Gallic lore should not be so casually discarded.
Powergaming can be done against a player, OR an NPC faction. Going contradictory to a faction's canon and lore -is- powergaming. His point is not moot, it's extremely valid. Just because there is no player faction representing an NPC faction does not, in any way, mean you can take it over and change it however you want to. Not even official factions can change the NPC faction. Those changes go through the dev team. We usually take in advice and suggestions from the official factions (and sometimes unofficial, if there is no official represenation) concerning the NPC faction they represent, but they are not the ones who control that change. The LE cannot put on a Brigand IFF/ID and be allowed to do whatever they want to the faction. Especially when it is poorly thought through and makes no sense with the currently existing canon.
Now, I'm not an admin, but I guarantee they are not going to accept this proposal for official status the way it is now. It doesn't work with the currently lore of the mod, and one of the criteria to become and remain official is in acting in a way that makes sense with the NPC faction you represent. The LE are not acting anything like Brigands. They are coming in and trying to change the NPC faction to suit themselves, rather than change themselves to suit the NPC faction.
@Catburt;
Keep in mind that the wiki is -not- official information. Most of it is largely written by players, and does not always reflect the reality of the lore on Disco. It's best to collect the lore from infocards/rumors in-game or through a program like FLDev (Freelancer Developer) to get the information directly from the mod.