The evening is fresh, the arguments weak, so here i go
(01-25-2014, 07:15 PM)... kur nubėgo? Wrote: 1. Economic argument. Additional income, you don't have to use specific product to be able to make profit out of it. You may be just middle man who hauls or delivers the product and profit from commision. For corsairs to make money out of others missfortune is not a moral problem.
You may argue against it that corsairs do not have resources to spare to sustain the slaves durning their trip, but it's not an issue as sairs can make use of slaves who already died in a form of human organs. And sell those. Technicly, it would make sense for corsairs to import slaves, slaughter them and make money out of it. This way denying availability of the resource to their enemies and thus profiting themselves.
a, how about ransomning those that are worthy? much better value for less effort for those who are worth it
b, you have no idea about organs, do you? you do not want to have an organ of a drug addicted, malnourished, sick person in you and you won't find buyers for them - so if you get a "fresh passsenger liner" no need to take slaves - take hostages, take organs,. done. less trouble, more pesetos.
2. Moral counter argument. Corsairs do not have compassion for humans per say. But only to their own kin and yet, not very significant even within the context of their own nation. Corsairs do not have problems with damaging well-being of others for their own sake, or even killing someone for some resources. From this perspective it makes little sense for corsairs to be feel compassion for enslaved person of other nation than their own. This do reminds me of bronze/iron age jewish slavery laws. While slavery of your fellow tribesman was not encouraged, but you could do whatever you want with a person of other tribe. It is not compassion but their ego and personal fame/infamy you gain by either being brutal and slaughtering your prey, being strong enough to let them run to spread your frightful presence(and not suffer from the backfire of freed enemies)
Anyway, if you would argue that sairs are someone who values personal freedom above life, when what's your problem with slaves being imported and when put to death? In such moralistic point of view you are doing a favour for enslaved. And technicly it's less of a crime than to kill freeman in order to profit from it, because here, you free salves from their horrible fate by act of murder. And i say the corsair warlord shows "mercy" by letting his enemies die instead taking away that last dirty puddle of honor they posess, hoarding more fame to his name by doing so
3. Social argument. We can agree that corsair society is not as developed as lets say Liberty's. I mean with organized goverment, liberal democracy and human rights stuff. It's more of a tribe - family based society with caste like influences. (some families are concidered to be noble or higher marely by the fact of 'certain' bloodline). And if we would look back at history, such societies relied on slave based economy without much problems. Sorry, but this is not true for all such "historic" examples, also - if you want that go play outcast - the sairs should not be outcasts mk II
4. Political / Ideological argument. This would have more to do with corsair supremacy thing. It's not a secret, that corsairs are very xenophobic people and feels etitled or more worthy than person of any other house. This does justify usage of slaves of other houses as moral, as typical corsair wouldn't concider a human of other house to be subject to corsair moral code. So xenophobics are well known for bringing foreigners in? What happed to your local labour?
Curretly only counter argument which is has proper weight is.. where do corsairs would ship those slaves? Well I think that there is always underground market for them please go and find me some slave usersthat are NOT sworn enemies to the corsairs. Some junkers would trade in them, some others wouldn't ...and sell em to whom, exactly?). But even if this is right, importing slaves for the sake of harvesting organs is a point which this counter argument fails to address.
Corsairs do not want to support Outcast regime while getting involved with slavery. Another point being presented here. Well first of all, there is no such thing as Outcast - Corsair war good to know! . It's rather small skirmishes between the zone of influences in sigmas or edge worlds. While devs attempted to introduce this into the game with Omicon Eta, all this war idea suffered a fiasko. Because of few things: ZoI of sairs and outcasts clashes in only few systems and second is absent of pragmatic reasons for the war If you count the empty omegas and rheinland out , the complete rest of the corsair ZOI is within the outcat zoi, which is about half of sirius. 3rd in vanilla lore there are hints, that corsair - outcast war is more of an echo of the past rather than burning conflict at current time. Corsairs should be more concentrated on real war front with hessians and raids on bretonia than anything else That is yourpersonal opinion. Indirectly supporting a group of other hispanians with whom they do not meet as much or fight can be accepted as coleteral damage for greater good in a sense. So you mean those dudes who sabotage our shipments at minimum? Those who siege us i eta? those who ally up with the bretons?those who threaten ourmarkets and innocent youths with drugs? The outcasts are a threat on multiple layers and an antithesis to the corsairs - we show our nice xenophobic nature by banishing everything outcastish as heretics stuff and whatnot! + the outcastsare allied with all our enemies(minus the hessians since 1-2 mod versions)
But if you argue that outcasts are a seriuos problem, again, this fails to address import of slaves and human organ harvesting:
1) profits can be had without overthrowing everything the sairs stand for
2) removes part of the resources avaliable for the outcasts on the market, thus weakening their power. you mean....every passenger liner we don't enslave is enslaved by casts? how about butchering the slavers and staying on the easier side with OSC, so they let us STICK AROUND ON THEIR FRIGGIN LINERS ? Or ow about butchering those slavers and setting those slaves free/ransoming them?
Now I would be also intrested in that news report about slavery abolishment, could anyone qoute it for me, I would be greatful, because at the current state all this "Sairs hate slavery" doesn't seem to make any sense.dig em up yourself in a boring minute Even if it is currently player developed lore, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be questioned. If it doesn't make any sense - it doesn't. thing is, it does
I want to play corsairs as cruel, hardy people. And yes, you do have problem with me, than someone pulls out nonsense straight out of nowhere and tries to enforce it onto me, even when it does collide with original corsair lore. Do it, be cruel, be hardy - just get creative...if you must, ransom those poor transport captains back to interspace or whatever and keep an arm of them as trophy/dinner if you think that improves your rp. Don't try to get all evil deeds available in disco into one faction - if you want slaves, go and take a look at everything from outcast to zoners, but don't greywash factions that are sharpening their profile with such nonsense
TLR - then don't bother to answer if you can't counter these arguments. Or atleast explain why they are void.
Your arguments are void - and you picked the softer ones i presented and avoided the hard nuts without showing any kind of evidence for your wild claims other than "i want"
1. Ransoming huge amounts of people is not a possible option.
1) It's a lot more risky.
2) Goverments do not negotiate with terrorists and alike.
Not like a sair should care about some miners life anyway. Sair would rob and kill it on daily basis, why his status of a slave should make things different? All slaves are drug addicts, even if that's so kidney is a kidney if it does it's function. Some of organs maybe lost some of them migh be ok. What sair should care, just write off 20% to loses by default and you're ok to go.
2. First part doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Kill / torture, make videos, spread in sirius. Don't need anyone being let out to speak of horrors he saw. Keeps up reputation as merciless and brutal without letting anyone go. If that's what you want to achieve of course.
On second part, it seems we both agree
3. Name atleast one influantial culture of medditeran or europe which didn't use slave labour until feudal age. Please share.
4. Yes. Xenophobics are okey with slavery and taking other cultures in, as long as slaves remain slaves forever. Anyway, I don't argue that corsairs should use slave labour, because of pragmatic reasons, they cannot sustain them. I was just talking about trafficking, not using slaves themselves. Again, you don't need to be a drug addict to profit from drug dealing.
Counter argument "1....and sell em to whom, exactly?" so what you are saying that human trafficking is like no longer existent in Sirius? Quite a leap of faith here. If you think that Outcasts are the only ones willing to buy slaves.
Look at this like that. Corsairs are supplier junkers distributor. Corsairs wholesale while junkers retail. Get it now? Or you fail to grasp the concept of human trafficking and what kind of crime it is? Because currently I think you only imagine a person who works at cardi field 16 hours a day and gets beaten 7 times a week.
Counter argument about OC - Sair stance:
Yes there is no such thing as outcast and corsair war. It started a turf war because of sigma 13. There are only 3 systems where outcast and corsair ZoI collides. That is: Sigma 13, Sigma 19 and Honshou. Honshou is so/so because outcast presence there is rather weak, they trust GC to do their dirty job there for them. And omegas are quite populated at the current moment, haven't you noticed?
Ye ofc later came mythos of one blaming other for sabotaging the sleepership, but it's a makebelief story.
Now part about "it's just your personal opinion". In omega 5 there is actuall warfront between hessians and corsairs in vanilla. There is no such warfront between sairs and oc's. Now ofc you can mentioned Omicron Eta, but that system is a fail and was discussed to be removed numerous times. There is ofc a romout of OC/Sair couple being seen in the bar.
Why should corsair care, that someone corrupts the youth of liberty? I mean really? What, corsairs are now sirius police of chivalrous behaviuor? Do you even feel how stupid it sounds when you put it that way?
But yeah lets talk about so called anti-thesis of corsairs:
1. Both are hispanic, comes from same sleepership.
2. Both believe in their own supremacy
3. Both cultures were outlawed and feel betreyed by the rest of humanity (atleast in subconsciuos level)
4. Both peoples have some sort of reproductivity problems. For corsairs it's scarcity of resources, for outcasts low fertility.
5. Both have supremacy in some sense. Outcasts DNR enchanced by cardi. Corsairs handy with shipbuilding and probably some access to alien knowledge due to artifacts.
6. Both cultures take extreme measures to survive.
Only big difference between these cultures is that Outcats don't breed as fast, therefor they put bigger emphasis on life of indivual. Choose to act in indirect ways, forge alliances, corrupt houses from within and similiar. While corsairs tend to use their military poweress more, because they have too many people and quality of ships.
Sorry but I fail to see this anti-thesis of yours.
Graywash factions? You accusing me attempting to greywash a faction? I want to see faction for what it is. And I'm really freaking tired of people smuggling all sorts of nonsense from their personal feelings or biases to the faction. And start attributing chivalrous knightly or heroic traits to their characters.. those characters later form factions and those become official and start mandating that now everyone should be knightly. Guess what? There are as much knightly characters as there are orphans it's a overused troope which in fact does the graying work.
Corsairs are no bs survavalists. They there forced to be such right from the landing. And still are. Sorry but I just don't see where do you fit your ideological honor nonsense when all one wants is to put bread on the table.
Now I don't say that corsairs should be down right 'evil'. But I feel that after trivium of TBH, OPG, and Benitez was broken so did the corsair faction development. Each of those factions represented a fraction of corsair roleplay. TBH inner affairs and military poweress, Benitez culture, socium and foreign affairs, OPG all the dirty work corsairs get themselves involved too.
OPG lost it's ground.. so did that dirty side of corsairs lost it's ground weighting scale towards house like lawful faction conduct. And if anything, this makes corsair faction to feel more generic.
We have no moral dilemma whatsoever in using and abusing slaves except if the slave is another corsair. Slaves are a commodity.
If slaves are using up too much food. We will eat them. They taste better than rice.
If you dont like this. We will eat you. You taste better than slaves.
Honour comes from what you accomplish for your people to ensure their survival and strength. Not from some hypocritical value placed on fools who should be ground under the feet of the corsair nation. Which is anyone in our way thats not prepared to move.
I DO NOT agree that it is dishonourable to own, use, and destroy any human that is an enemy of the corsair people as a slave. My amigos agree.
Human organs. These taste great. We should have more. SOmetimes they are usefull to replace the stuff that our enemies kindly shoot out of us. OPG have no issue with anyone carrying these in our space or delivering to our bases. we wouldnt have batted an eyelid. We may however have requested a percentage of the cargo because we like fresh meat as much as the next man.
Not all corsairs are cannibals. Maybe its just me but then you never know do you.
Oh and OPG is getting ground back so expect to see a dirty nasty evil aspect of corsair culture more often.
I see not much more than pseudo arguments and evasive answers, i doubt there is much sense in this discussion other than stirring up moods...so guys - if you think slavery is a typical corsair thing, you now own a proud place in the council of elders and have a big influence on how the corsairs will develop. Gather the support of the other factions, then you will be able to get the corsair laws about slavery changed.
And if you are afraid the corsairs grew stale, then get creative and pray for a story dev that doesn't take joy in crippling and fooling you.
Other than that - play your sairs as evil and scary as it gets - just keep it within said lore boundaries until you actually do more then screaming around here...
Am I the only one to view Corsairs as regular people driven to commence some atrocities in order to survive due to being pushed to edge of apocalypse but still having families (caring as much as it gets in such hostile planet) and human emotions?
I always viewed Corsairs to be much more sophisticated in comparison to Liberty Rogues who are not a nation in itself.
Jesus,this is quite a pickle...
From my own stance,we don't need slaves,keep them away from Corsairs,or we might be holding hands with Outcasts soon...
Organs on the other hand are interesting,I used to smuggle them from Etna in 4.86,i even made a pirate train with apropriate name for this..Satanico Pandemonium.
Smuggling and trading with organs could be brought back,you have my vote on that matter..
Thing that set's Corsairs apart from Outcasts and other pirate factions is the sence of honour and pride,I rp-ed all of my Sair chars as a bloodthirtsy pirate,but one with a strong sense of honour and dignity.
I even have let my enemies leave with their lives,and didn't destroyed them in combat.
That brought me recognition amongst our enemies(Red Hessians,RoS,Mollys,these are the ones I interacted the moust),as a individual who values honour.
I'm aware that that is foolish and somewhat not fitting for a Corsair,but for me at least,there is some kind of almoust romantic aura around Corsairs as a whole,that they are more then just a scalywags and canibals...
That aura,that foolish romanticism,first brought me to Corsairs 4 years a go now...
And it's still keeping me tied,and utterly in love with this faction...
To sum it up,I could never trade with Slaves,It's against evertyhing I love about this faction.
If I ever wanted to,I'll just leave Sairs and start playing Outcasts..
But If OPG want's this,I belive you guys have the man power to change things.
I would suggest making a splinter group within empire,and seizing a system for your own,that will allow you to do what ever you want,and also bring some dynamic to Corsair political scene.
These were my two cents...
PS:Forgive my typos,I was writing this via cell phone.
I don't especially have an issue with Corsairs and slaves. By some measures it trading in humans might not be the most honourable, but at the same time individuals have different ways of measuring such things, and of measuring their honour.
I can therefore understand that Corsairs would very possibly trade in Slaves, although almost certainly not by bringing them to Crete for reasons outlined below.
I would of though that within Corsair society Slaves would be pretty uncommon.
Corsairs can design and build space ships, which implies that they can probably do the same for robots?
If Corsairs build robots which seems likely, and considering the problems that exist in supporting a large population of Corsairs (let alone Corsairs and slaves), then why would they need slaves?
They might need slaves for some very specific tasks, but I would of thought that these would be fairly rare?
The other alternate might be social status. Rich and powerful Corsairs might want some to demonstrate their wealth and power simply by being able to afford to feed a few non-essential mouths.
Finally, cannibalism as a general thing is not a very healthy option, and results in a degenerative disease that kills you. I doubt anyone would chose this option, but I can understand why it might happen if you were desperate enough.
I don't know about any of you, but my sair character is against slaves - even for the slighest things, such as cleaning my floor. I'd always prefer another corsair than a stranger. ( though that doesn't show much respect to that sair whos cleaning my floor ) - but other than that simple arguement, how would it be consumed, if crete cant support its own population, and giving that slaves are humans as well, thats more mouths to feed. Also, I get the feeling that those who control the sair empire are more "gentleman" than the average sair, or the sair who lives in a dumpster with ugly attitude and approach to civil values. Expecting them to enable slavery wont really prefect their "status".
I agree that honor is a pivotal aspect when it comes to corsairs, but within reason and not as another "corsair cryptonite" like the food thing. People are way too simplistic in their approach to these two aspects, as if it is a "let me go or u no rp" card.
Here's an example on my take on Corsair honor: There is a certain pirate in O3 I tried to remove via my usual brutish approach ('cause he is not a Corsair = not worthy of honor), and when I realized I didn't stand a chance I threw in the towel and broke off. Now when my character comes across that character, he is treated with great respect and honor - because he earned it. That is roleplay to me, reacting to situations and events in-character, rather than just follow some template regarding "how it ought to be" because that is really not roleplay in my book.
If I had gone into that encounter with "great honor" and much respect for my opponent as a starting point, there would have been no real encounter; it would be meaningless (both mine and his characters wouldn't have progressed) and just a tiresome stalemate in the cookie-cutter way we create and present our characters and factions. I like people to be creative and think for themselves; but that is rarely appreciated here, I know. Everything has to be black or white here.
The same with slaves, saying flat out it is "dishonorable" or "morally wrong" for Corsairs to get involved in the slave trade isn't making that much sense at all. Yes I see that slaves use up valuable food and that Corsairs wouldn't have any interest in a slave-state like the Outcasts and would probably treat their slaves a lot worse - slaves would be commodities, subjects unworthy of any doubts and discussions regarding honor or morals, like a lower caste outside of society.
I can't see how it would be an issue that some Corsairs choose to keep the fittest and strongest of the prisoners of war they take rather than just flat out executing them, if they can make credits on them I fail to see why not other than random corsair laws and glorius un-realitistic and un-reflected ideals of morals and honor that leaves out any and all nuances - and nuances is what makes most/all roleplay plausible if you ask me.
Nope, problem is that I don't find any basis in corsair lore for "pride and dignity" or basis for being against slavery other than pragmatic reasons (not being capable to feed them). Anyway, this pragamtic reason only creates trouble for corsairs using slaves, but not human trafficking.
And Rodnas, if I'm the one with "pseudo" arguments here, when actually present entire background for my point of view, could you please draw me step by step reasoning, logical line from corsair lore to "honor and dignity" because I can't find it. And you fail to answer many points risen here. As of why corsair should care about bretonian being a slave, and even if he has so called honour and dignity, but if bretonian is not subject of corsair moral code when it changes nothing. Your overweening attitude it getting annoying.
"Am I the only one to view Corsairs as regular people driven to commence some atrocities in order to survive due to being pushed to edge of apocalypse but still having families (caring as much as it gets in such hostile planet) and human emotions?" - and how does human trafficking denies corsair of any human emotion?
P.S just please read what I've wrote in page 2. Because some of your responses have been already refuted or have an answer.