(12-18-2014, 10:56 AM)Anomander Wrote: It seems that some of You people missing my point - NPC are part of Role Play
this is an RP Server - roleplaying is required while playing here.
Freelancers are not pirates - they cannot sit on treadeline and shoot NPC
for purpose stealing their cargo.
If Your ID not state otherwise - You cannot shoot whatever you like,
You cannot shoot allies, neutrals - NPC neither players
On the other hand, you yourself are missing one point of the discussion, which is that NPCs are not players, thus you cannot apply ID rules when it comes to NPCs.
Your point of view and concern is that NPCs are RP elements, this is a RP server, so a freelancer pirating NPCs is breaking ID rules. Which rules? Let me be more direct, which ID rules apply to NPCs and which don't? For example (from the pirate ID, seeing as how only men use it for NPC pirating -> sarcasm) does the "Can demand cargo and credits from any ship, and attack them if they do not comply" rule apply? Cause it can't you know NPCs being not players and all. Shall we make a different set of rules when it comes to NPCs. This issue is ridiculous, seriously.
As for your concerns that new players might, in the future, will break rules as they please, have faith in the admins, that's why they are here, i'm sure they will set them straight given the chance.
Forget sanctioning peeps, think more RP consequences. - see bellow
(12-18-2014, 11:33 AM)WPeregrine Wrote: That being said, I believe that while they aren't liable for metagaming/rules sanctions, they leave themselves open to law enforcement persecution. Report them to the police, or bring the police yourself, and see them changing their tone of speech when faced with someone that will drag their behinds to jail (with a kill).
(12-17-2014, 09:37 PM)Hidamari Wrote: if im on my police, and sombody is shooting police npcs infront of me and i ask them in a semi long winded fashion to stop.
if they dont stop, they are going to die.
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And so on and so forth.
(12-18-2014, 11:33 AM)WPeregrine Wrote: I don't believe acts against npcs are worthy of a sanction, much less of a report for server rules violations. However, it is still a rp action, and very likely a inrp criminal offense.
That being said, I believe that while they aren't liable for metagaming/rules sanctions, they leave themselves open to law enforcement persecution. Report them to the police, or bring the police yourself, and see them changing their tone of speech when faced with someone that will drag their behinds to jail (with a kill).
This is a very good point and I must agree on that. Sometimes Freelancers must kill NPCs, because they want better rep with other group (i.e. Kill Brets, you are better with Gauls).
But as Admins said, NPCs and Players are the same, when it comes to the "can defend the X and/or Y vessels" rules. However, this need some clarification on the other hand, because LSF, KPT, BIS and BDM IDs have different rule - "can ally with unlawfuls" - which falls into the same line as "defending", and doesn't at the same time, because you won't really ally with Liberty Rogues NPCs, as those are rephacked for KPT for example.
Piracy over NPCs is a slightly different problem, because you can't demand them - only destroy them, and this is where NPCs aren't equal with Players, HOWEVER there's a workaround, because NPCs can't reply, so they deny demands of cargo or credits by default, if you are Pirate ID - and you are free to fire upon them. This is how so far I understand that. Plus, they are likely to fire on you, with Pirate ID.
I can't believe this moronic discussion is still going on.
NPCs are NPCs, for Christ's sake. I can shoot them if I want to.
You're welcome to take it as iRP if you want, but don't you dare suggest that the server rules, things designed to shape player-on-player interactions, actually apply to blasting annoying NPCs out of the sky. Don't you even dare.
I feel like I'm either greatly misreading what's being posted here, in which case I look stupid - or that this community has just reached a new level of stupidity as a collective. Really, there's people who think NPC shooting should be restricted at all by ID rules? Wise up, please.
(12-18-2014, 03:07 PM)Omicega Wrote: I can't believe this moronic discussion is still going on.
NPCs are NPCs, for Christ's sake. I can shoot them if I want to.
You're welcome to take it as iRP if you want, but don't you dare suggest that the server rules, things designed to shape player-on-player interactions, actually apply to blasting annoying NPCs out of the sky. Don't you even dare.
I feel like I'm either greatly misreading what's being posted here, in which case I look stupid - or that this community has just reached a new level of stupidity as a collective. Really, there's people who think NPC shooting should be restricted at all by ID rules? Wise up, please.
We treat NPCs as Players in certain lines, because Admins and rules say so. For your information this is roleplay server and NPCs exist in the roleplay plane as normal vessels. The problem is, if we treat NPCs as Players for certain lines in our rulesets, why not to treat them like that in the all lines?
ID doesn't specify that vessel must be either player or NPC.
However the problem is, that we are in the gray area, as people follow one of the very common yet unwritten rule and I can agree on that:
"If something is neither allowed nor forbidden - it is allowed."
For example, GMG and Samura can ally against pirates, if situation requires that, despite the fact this is not written in the ruleset. It is not forbidden however, as GMG MAY, but don't need to, pirate Samura. They are unfriendly, but neutral against themselves.
(12-18-2014, 03:07 PM)Omicega Wrote: NPCs are NPCs, for Christ's sake. I can shoot them if I want to.
NPC are NPC - yet still are part of Role Play - when You play as eg,
LR and see a LN blasting LR NPC do You act like nothing happen?
I bet that that particular situation You will protect allied vessels.
As far I do not see a problem when Pirate ID player cargo-pirate NPC or
there is no problem when You blast NPC while doing missions or simply defend Yourself.
I see a problem when someone using game mechanic for own advantage,
by expoiting the fact that Freelancer ID is rep-hacked as neutral for most stations.
I see the problem that Freelancer ID players - attack alied, neutral vessels
in act of piracy - when they are not suposed to act like pirates.
(12-18-2014, 03:07 PM)Omicega Wrote: but don't you dare suggest that the server rules, things designed to shape player-on-player interactions,
actually apply to blasting annoying NPCs out of the sky. Don't you even dare.
You are wrong that server rules are only designed to shape player-on-player interactions.
And I will dare - since such actions are harming GAMEPLAY on ROLEPLAYING SERVER
since are completly ooRP actions - not mention it's abuse of game mechanics
IMHO - such actions are violation of rules: 1.3 , 2. and 6. yet Garret says that
(12-17-2014, 09:14 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: I'm not going to beat anyone with a banhammer for farming NPC's. Hawk might, but he's the mean one.
So I get it - bringing ban-hammer is a little too much - yet it's still
action against the server rules, and such people should be instructed and face inRP consequences.
I disagree that NPCs are a part of the roleplay, at least in the context you provided. Roleplay focuses on the player interaction, and you can't really interact with NPCs (at least the Freelancer ones, naturally). However, in a situation where there's a lawful player around and you start shooting NPCs then they might as well shoot you for killing people. That's the part of roleplay NPCs provide.
As far as IDs are concerned, what's the point of it anyway? It doesn't matter what ID you use, Bethlehem is open both to Pirates and Freelancers, so who cares.
(12-17-2014, 04:19 PM)Anomander Wrote: I don't want to report new players - so I trying to explain/teach them
but what do You people do?
Can you point out the rule that's being broken? NPC, as far as I know are not included in the same category as player, thus a player can do basically, anything regarding NPCs. On the other hand that does not mean that his actions don't have consequences ( but only inRP and ingame or forum/com channel), but never in the sanction thread.
This was my point. Of course it can be treated as an inrp event, however, as far as ID goes, there is no rule saying a FL ID'd ship (or any ID) can't kill any kind of NPC, and that is because it is kinda oorp as killing npc's only requires 1 person bare minimum, and isn't necessarily a pvp interaction. If there are other players around, they can take it how they see it and RP around that, or in many cases, use as a reason to engage.
As far as I am concerned the very basic fundamental aspect of the game is killing npc's and having the freedom to do so regardless of what role you are playing. If you want to risk doing it in front of other players, so be it. Most people will only farm NPC's on their own and it is a totally legit way to make money, especially when starting out. But there's nothing wrong with another player wanting to RP around catching someone doing something 'illegal' inrp like npc piracy. Catching someone other than a 'pirate' doing such a thing could be a blessing rp wise. At the very least, perhaps the other player will end up 'educated' as to the inrp significance of their actions on the server.
I vote we just change the IFF of Bethlehem to either one of the Lib corporate factions. Do some RP about the zoners selling it.
This will remove the worst case of people OORP shooting lawful transports within inches of the station then immediately docking to sell there, despite the fact that the zoners would never tolerate this because it would land them in hot water with the Lib government.
People in this thread AREN'T complaining about NPCs being shot. They're complaining about farming lawful NPCs right next to what is essentially (due to the treaty of Bethlehem) a lawful station and then docking with that station to sell the items.
(12-18-2014, 07:53 PM)TheUnforgiven Wrote: As far as I am concerned the very basic fundamental aspect of the game is killing npc's and having the freedom to do so regardless of what role you are playing. If you want to risk doing it in front of other players, so be it. Most people will only farm NPC's on their own and it is a totally legit way to make money, especially when starting out. But there's nothing wrong with another player wanting to RP around catching someone doing something 'illegal' inrp like npc piracy. Catching someone other than a 'pirate' doing such a thing could be a blessing rp wise. At the very least, perhaps the other player will end up 'educated' as to the inrp significance of their actions on the server.
I'm not vote against killing NPC - kill them: in self defence, on missions or if they are enemies of Your kin
(LR shooting LPI NPC - or LPI shooting LR/LH NPC is perfectly fine for me)
I'm against abusing game mechanics for own profit- such pirating NPC by players using non-pirate IDs.
See, here's the thing. With quite a bit of time spent on my FL IDed ptrain outside Bethlehem killing NPCs (come on, I do this as well, very rarely though), this is not an ultimate and the best way of making money. It just simply isn't. At the time I'd kill enough NPCs to earn 50 mil, I'd be done with two runs of Niobium Ore from taus to Liberty, and have 150 mil.
What I will agree on is that it is definitely the best way of making money in a medium transport - doing smuggling, ore routes or whatever else in a BWT takes a long time and is way less profitable. And shooting NPCs is an oorp action unless there's some lawful player around that this could make mad.
(12-18-2014, 03:07 PM)Omicega Wrote: I can't believe this moronic discussion is still going on.
NPCs are NPCs, for Christ's sake. I can shoot them if I want to.
You're welcome to take it as iRP if you want, but don't you dare suggest that the server rules, things designed to shape player-on-player interactions, actually apply to blasting annoying NPCs out of the sky. Don't you even dare.
I feel like I'm either greatly misreading what's being posted here, in which case I look stupid - or that this community has just reached a new level of stupidity as a collective. Really, there's people who think NPC shooting should be restricted at all by ID rules? Wise up, please.