(02-03-2015, 10:40 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: It should be taken to mean that if a faction doesn't have the necessary activity to remain official, then they shouldn't expect to be given perks. Any faction meeting the activity requirements for Officialdom should rightly expect to have their perk requests considered.
Which also mean these people are forced to play the game. Same thing regarding PoB's. As somebody already said to me before:
Quote:Once you build PoB, the "I want to log" changes to "I must log". You know that. And you know how toxic this may be.
I would like to build a PoB for my offical faction to make it more attractive to play in this faction. But i can't because it requires more activity, freetime and efforts than i and maybe the rest of the faction members can offer.
Some people go to school, work or study. We just want to enjoy the game and don't want a second workplace.
You've hit the nail Sky, demands, the ultimate turn off for officialdom. Why bother donning what only amounts to a few extra letters in your name in exchange for demanded excellence in RP, online time and conduct?
Compared to the freedom of just slapping on an ID and not breaking the rules, it seems a tad moot. While the new perks may give a nice boost to a few factions, the overall issue still remains, being in an official faction isn't fun, something that my experience has led me to believe rests on that very first demand. Excellence in RP.
For example, if an official faction member acts a fool or does something that's not sanctionable but not generally frowned upon they get their actions reported to on the faction's feedback which leads to some form of warning or punishment. If a factionless player does the same thing, it's simply brushed aside as "stupid indies."
Again, in fights if an official faction outnumbers or outguns their opponents e.g. 4 v 1 or battleships vs a fighter, it gets reported in their feedback and those who took part get a warning/punished. Similarly if several indies do the same, which is pretty common especially the cap usage, it's brushed off again as "lolwuts."
I may be wrong but I'm pretty certain that this dual standard is a source of a sizable amount of contention and something must be be tackled if we want official factions to be the shining examples demanded of them.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: While the new perks may give a nice boost to a few factions, the overall issue still remains, being in an official faction isn't fun, something that my experience has led me to believe rests on that very first demand. Excellence in RP.
Then you've been unlucky and ended up in either a crappy faction or a faction with bitter, guarded people. I've had a boatload of fun in official factions, and my roleplay and general conduct has been exactly the same as when I fly as an indie. If players can only behave themselves when they don a tag, maybe we need to address that issue isolated, rather than make it a part of the faction discussion. I'd argue that out-of-control players that need a tag to behave somewhat reasonably are in the vast minority.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: For example, if an official faction member acts a fool or does something that's not sanctionable but not generally frowned upon they get their actions reported to on the faction's feedback which leads to some form of warning or punishment. If a factionless player does the same thing, it's simply brushed aside as "stupid indies."
The other side to that is that whenever you join an official faction, they tell you straight off the bat that they don't care about indie players and we can treat them as we see fit. And that is what happens. I get a very different treatment when I fly untagged ships compared to flying tagged ships whenever I deal with official faction players. For instance yesterday, we were some indies out causing destruction in the Omegas, and several players in our group were exiled by the official faction without any sort of discussion by some guy showing up and going "I r boss" and we were all treated like total lolwuts, even though we were actually playing the role intended for the NPC faction. Being vets, we all know not to care at all, but had we been new players, it would be a very negative - and unnecessary - experience.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: Again, in fights if an official faction outnumbers or outguns their opponents e.g. 4 v 1 or battleships vs a fighter, it gets reported in their feedback and those who took part get a warning/punished. Similarly if several indies do the same, which is pretty common especially the cap usage, it's brushed off again as "lolwuts."
Indies and faction players alike use their resources in a similar matter. Ganks, caps on snubs, botfeeding and so on and so forth is most definitely not only done by indies - far from it. Where an indie player might not have a feedback thread, they are instead targets of smear campaigns on the forum and skype, where they can't defend themselves to the same extent as an official faction can do in a feedback thread. Ask the group of indie pirates that recently pirated quite often in Liberty how they were treated - I bet they would have preferred a feedback thread where they could go "Ok. Mods lock this please" in, and that way brush off everything.
The real issue is veterans clinging to factions and antiquated narratives of the indies, the community and their own (very important!!!1!) role. They are in the way of improvements to the general benefit of us all, and there's no way you can make them realize this, as they are so deeply entrenched and jaded already. I'm not all against these perks, I am sure some really cool stuff can come out of it, but the idea that official factions "deserve" them because they are somehow "better" is a total joke.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: While the new perks may give a nice boost to a few factions, the overall issue still remains, being in an official faction isn't fun, something that my experience has led me to believe rests on that very first demand. Excellence in RP.
Then you've been unlucky and ended up in either a crappy faction or a faction with bitter, guarded people. I've had a boatload of fun in official factions, and my roleplay and general conduct has been exactly the same as when I fly as an indie. If players can only behave themselves when they don a tag, maybe we need to address that issue isolated, rather than make it a part of the faction discussion. I'd argue that out-of-control players that need a tag to behave somewhat reasonably are in the vast minority.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: For example, if an official faction member acts a fool or does something that's not sanctionable but not generally frowned upon they get their actions reported to on the faction's feedback which leads to some form of warning or punishment. If a factionless player does the same thing, it's simply brushed aside as "stupid indies."
The other side to that is that whenever you join an official faction, they tell you straight off the bat that they don't care about indie players and we can treat them as we see fit. And that is what happens. I get a very different treatment when I fly untagged ships compared to flying tagged ships whenever I deal with official faction players. For instance yesterday, we were some indies out causing destruction in the Omegas, and several players in our group were exiled by the official faction without any sort of discussion by some guy showing up and going "I r boss" and we were all treated like total lolwuts, even though we were actually playing the role intended for the NPC faction. Being vets, we all know not to care at all, but had we been new players, it would be a very negative - and unnecessary - experience.
(02-08-2015, 03:32 PM)Croft Wrote: Again, in fights if an official faction outnumbers or outguns their opponents e.g. 4 v 1 or battleships vs a fighter, it gets reported in their feedback and those who took part get a warning/punished. Similarly if several indies do the same, which is pretty common especially the cap usage, it's brushed off again as "lolwuts."
Indies and faction players alike use their resources in a similar matter. Ganks, caps on snubs, botfeeding and so on and so forth is most definitely not only done by indies - far from it. Where an indie player might not have a feedback thread, they are instead targets of smear campaigns on the forum and skype, where they can't defend themselves to the same extent as an official faction can do in a feedback thread. Ask the group of indie pirates that recently pirated quite often in Liberty how they were treated - I bet they would have preferred a feedback thread where they could go "Ok. Mods lock this please" in, and that way brush off everything.
The real issue is veterans clinging to factions and antiquated narratives of the indies, the community and their own (very important!!!1!) role. They are in the way of improvements to the general benefit of us all, and there's no way you can make them realize this, as they are so deeply entrenched and jaded already. I'm not all against these perks, I am sure some really cool stuff can come out of it, but the idea that official factions "deserve" them because they are somehow "better" is a total joke.
Quoted the whole thing again for maximum +1.
The real problem is not that it's no fun to be an official faction. The real problem is that there are things that make playing no fun for everyone, official or not. These things are the ridiculous, hypocritical, and no-fun expectations that are being raised: Don't attack people unless they want you to, don't try to win, don't try new things that may meet the disapproval of a strict pre-written lore that was fun to create 5 years ago but has been strangling the creativity of people ever since, don't disobey the instructions of some late-pubescent egomaniac who has spent the last 3 years gathering followers on Skype and who has become a pro at using it to screw people over here.
All of that is expected from officials and indies alike, and it's just straight out impossible to have fun like that. That's why everyone except those who never use the right mouse button breaks these expectations while at the same time loudly pretending that they don't, constantly smearing the other side with accusations of "YOU GANK!", "YOU'RE OORP!", and "SERVER BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU!" to justify themselves.
What the admins must do is to send a clear message that there are no first class and second class citizens here, that everyone's fun is equally important, and that perks are given to everyone who fulfills requirements that are realistic for anyone who can communicate in English to achieve, and not for successfully pretend to meet hypocritical expectations that are in truth impossible to have fun with.
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(02-08-2015, 04:05 PM)Mímir Wrote: Then you've been unlucky and ended up in either a crappy faction or a faction with bitter, guarded people. I've had a boatload of fun in official factions, and my roleplay and general conduct has been exactly the same as when I fly as an indie. If players can only behave themselves when they don a tag, maybe we need to address that issue isolated, rather than make it a part of the faction discussion. I'd argue that out-of-control players that need a tag to behave somewhat reasonably are in the vast minority.
The keyword there being "had" as I too have had good times in official factions, however the recent slump of faction activity seems to indicate that is no longer the case. Why else would factions be getting these perks if the overall fun of the factions hadn't declined.
I didn't mention out of control players, nor would I assume that putting on a tag would do anything to stop a someone being a pain. Only that being a part of an official faction carries a certain weight and responsibility to be considered a representative of the given faction. In fact I imagine those wanting to cause trouble are discovered far quicker within factions due to that demanded "Excellence."
(02-08-2015, 04:05 PM)Mímir Wrote: The other side to that is that whenever you join an official faction, they tell you straight off the bat that they don't care about indie players and we can treat them as we see fit. And that is what happens. I get a very different treatment when I fly untagged ships compared to flying tagged ships whenever I deal with official faction players. For instance yesterday, we were some indies out causing destruction in the Omegas, and several players in our group were exiled by the official faction without any sort of discussion by some guy showing up and going "I r boss" and we were all treated like total lolwuts, even though we were actually playing the role intended for the NPC faction. Being vets, we all know not to care at all, but had we been new players, it would be a very negative - and unnecessary - experience.
That is a blatant exageration, some factions and people may have the idea that officialdom somehow makes you a better person or player but to say that every official faction views indies as something below them is going too far. We know there are people like that flying around, thinking they superior to all others in someway regardless of being in a faction or not.
However what you experienced may be a more heavy handed approach to something, not exactly demanded but expect of official faction players which is often a double edged sword, and that is to control indies of their faction.
I can tell you from my years as playing as a policeman that I have recieved more complaints and reports about how I should be controlling indies than anything else. These messages came from absolutely everyone, all assuming that I should be responsible for the actions of a player I've never met before. Some were just new players being a little trigger happy or uncertain what to do and would generally be fine if you gave them a little guidance, not commands but suggestions. Others however just flat out ignored you.
One in particular I remember involved a cruiser that was shooting smugglers without allowing them to RP an excuse or otherwise talk their way out of the situation. I tried to explain that is was a better idea to give them a bit of wiggle room for the sake of fun, I got ignored, the smuggler got destroyed and was understandably annoyed but in the end it was me who got three minutes of whispered complaint from the guy because the cruiser ignored him and I was simply there.
I'm not condoning what happened with you and your group, only offering a possible insight as to why it happened.
(02-08-2015, 04:05 PM)Mímir Wrote: Indies and faction players alike use their resources in a similar matter. Ganks, caps on snubs, botfeeding and so on and so forth is most definitely not only done by indies - far from it. Where an indie player might not have a feedback thread, they are instead targets of smear campaigns on the forum and skype, where they can't defend themselves to the same extent as an official faction can do in a feedback thread. Ask the group of indie pirates that recently pirated quite often in Liberty how they were treated - I bet they would have preferred a feedback thread where they could go "Ok. Mods lock this please" in, and that way brush off everything.
The real issue is veterans clinging to factions and antiquated narratives of the indies, the community and their own (very important!!!1!) role. They are in the way of improvements to the general benefit of us all, and there's no way you can make them realize this, as they are so deeply entrenched and jaded already. I'm not all against these perks, I am sure some really cool stuff can come out of it, but the idea that official factions "deserve" them because they are somehow "better" is a total joke.
Smear campaigns and skype rubbish happen to everyone, it's a sad fact of the matter that some people will take the game too far but those things are used sparsely due to the banning that usually takes place following. Let's be honest, there is no difference in the defense, forum reporting and skype ignores are hardly the explicit realm of official factions.
I don't believe the factions are being given these perks because they are "better", I do think however believe they are being given because they are expected to be an example to new players, showing them how to behave and RP due to the demands made of them to become and remain official.
Actually the whole paragons of RP and sheppards of the lambs seem to have come parceled with the FRs at the same time. Actually I think the sheppards of the lambs things came parceled with the only one faction per ID thing. What I don't remember anymore is if we got it without asking for it, or if it was perhaps that, well you know, we 'reaaaaly asked for it'. I know that even being an official faction leader (but from even before the FRs existed) I wanted to have them deleted since day one. I even tried to end the official status of my faction but was blocked unanimously by the roster. I even kept bringing it up in admin chats that they need to be deleted. They create a nasty divide and a persistent misperception of expectations. This thread highlights again a large wall of text I hope the admins read in the admin section about this endless circle. (sadly I don't even remember it's title). Safer to delete them and put up with some temprary whining from official faction until they realize they lost something they never had and the rest won't falsely believe they are the paragons of RP and sheppards of the lambs anymore.
Ok I still have fun in factions, I meant to say And I agree that the perks can be interesting ways to expand rp. Larger ZOI and things like that. I don't think they are particularly needed though - a lot of factions (official and unofficial) are experiencing a boom in member influx for different reasons. New factions have toppled old ones for the official spot, and all in all I don't think things are all that grave. Sure, there's always people complaining about no rp, but quite a few of those people joined within the last couple of years, where the misconception that PVP and RP are two completely different things, separated from one another, really took hold. We all know that it is usually those ending up on the wrong side of a blue message for whatever reason that complain about "bad rp".
Regarding policing indies, I think you hit the nail on the head. That's the biggest mistake - the policing should be left to admins and admins only. I played for years before even considering joining a faction because I thought all they did was wave dicks and police indies. Things have changed and most factions tend to stick to their own business now, but there's still a few of the "policemen" around. I can happily say that I'm not in factions that polices its indies, and I would most probably leave a faction that asked that of me.
Tl;dr: In some ways factions are better now than ever before.
Edit: Aha, I'm on my phone so I can only read a couple of lines at a time I see. It sucks getting chewed out unfairly just because you are the one donning the tag. But hey in a way it's a compliment that the guy talks to you rather than the cruiser - he saw you as the one that could be reasoned with.