Lock Capital Ships to Zone of Influence on Independent IDs

[Thyrzul]

So now you take a rant of mine about the inequality between official and indie responsibilities, then take the first sentence out of context to prove I lied about not mentioning ship deletion (which in fact wasn't a lie, I just forgot I started the rant with that because that was not the point of the rant), really? I've made my point quite clear. I've made my reasoning quite clear. If you are here to nitpick what I said and keep expanding upon the occasional derail, we don't have much to discuss.

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[Mr.Mike.]

Examples such as this and this need to stop.

Wilde? Just if boy want RP-ing so, then... Or I mistaken? Ah, yes, I right:

In retrospect, we obliterated one Rheinland battleship cold in it's tracks, before the infection had the chance to spread throughout it, we scared the second one crapless and as a bonus, we had a nice target practice. And on top of that, we most likely saved the Freeport from a whole lot of infectees with guns and no regard for personal space whatsoever.

Nevertheless, I do not understand at all what the fuck the military poured into the Delta. For violation of the ZOI usually give sanctions, if not mistaken. Though, here business RP. When I flew to Bretonia, I began to ask permission from Admiral BAF| for a full-fledged existence in this space. Just:
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And why Council going in Omicrons? Guys, for clarity - make a logical chain in the RP-game, so that you are not asked from both sides, why did you come here. First, get an order to move to Omicron (or ask your high command), and then ask for permission to fly in those who control these same Omicrons ( here Delta ).


P.S.: It's just that I'm already beginning to worry about it - every left can just write that it's infected. It's doubly funnier to look when the infected themselves are next to it. How can they act in this case? For such a serious need to punish or do a similar RP with the permission of the infected, which is nearby. "There is no permission - we are not to blame, that you received sanction, your mistake."

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[TheShooter36]

I think caps ooZOI is fine as long as

-They dont go through a dozen of hostile systems alone.
-Dont go around claiming ridiculous things just to be there.
-If they still insist on going at least document how they arrived and go with a reasonable cause.

For example, A CR battlegroup going into California to stop GRN or just assist Liberty makes sense. But same group going to like Sigmas doesnt makes sense. We would have to go through several hostile omicrons after all.

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[Ash]

@Ash The main issue I see here resulting in this debate getting nowhere (besides Karlotta) is that both sides bring individual cases forward in order to support their side and counter the other. We have cases where people flying ships differently than they were originally intended did so responsibly and provided actually quality roleplay. Then we have cases of the complete opposite, like those spawning this thread (and I did not even present all recent examples related to Council). It's difficult to judge if it's indeed only personal or more widespread than you think only from this.

You see here you're not seeing the big picture. You're giving us instances, i'm talking about entire factions and groups. I'm saying you can't impose this rule on everyone based on a handful of cases, most of which are related to one faction. I have no doubt that you have evidence of numerous instances of Council indie caps tumbling down the rabbit hole. Moreso this points towards a problem with your mod faction be it related to activity, mod balancing or any number of reasons already discussed.

I didn't want to get down to the nitty gritty but we keep coming back to the order and core. We are missing the point that these factions fall into a fourth category that is nor lawful, unlawful or corporate. These are specialised factions, the lore of which could allow them to go wherever they wanted. A ZOI restriction is necessary to reign in these factions because there is good reason to venture. Contrast that with your average house military, it's a given that their primary role is to safeguard their core space. All that to say that every faction is different, attracts different sorts of players, has different activity levels, has different standings and functions and goals. Can you imagine how many lines in the sand you'd have to draw to apply this ludicrous idea to the Zoners? You can't put a horse, a dog and a mouse in a cell and expect everyone to stay put.

It frankly feels like this entire faction system, not just Disco but Vanilla is based on, loses its meaning if one can just pick any faction and still do whatever they want no matter if it fits the role of the faction or not.

A gross over exaggeration.

And then as a result it makes my job as an official faction leader to take care of the NPC faction mine is meant to represent also feel significantly less meaningful. And I'm really not asking for anything here that I wouldn't uphold and enforce within my own faction.

The whole point of running an official faction is to be able to control the quality of play within your group. You are not held accountable for the actions of indies aligned with your affiliation. It's noble of you to want to promote the quality and consistency of gameplay throughot your faction, but it's extra curricular.

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[Thyrzul]

You see here you're not seeing the big picture. You're giving us instances, i'm talking about entire factions and groups. I'm saying you can't impose this rule on everyone based on a handful of cases, most of which are related to one faction. I have no doubt that you have evidence of numerous instances of Council indie caps tumbling down the rabbit hole. Moreso this points towards a problem with your mod faction be it related to activity, mod balancing or any number of reasons already discussed.

These instances are examples, some related to my faction some are not, Lyth also brought examples unrelated to Omicrons as well, the case of Black Scorpion losing his ship, or that dude with the monkey-thing account name and the rogue HMS ship receiving a Terrorist ID eventually due to extreme deviation from their initially chosen role. But just because it were the more recent Council-related issues finally prompting a thread like this, and just because it's Lyth and myself actively speaking up, don't think these are individual and specific cases. These happen apparently everywhere and return from time to time throughout the years, and if you look at other comments in this thread you can see the two of us aren't the only ones asking for some sensibility and reasonability from anyone flying a capital ship. If you still say these are individual issues, I think you are the one not seeing the big picture here.

You say the proposed rule cannot be enforced on everyone just because a handful of deviations, but the proposal itself, while covers everyone, pretty much affects only those willing to deviate, and would leave unaffected all those factions and groups who stick to their chosen faction's lore and propagate that instead of their own unrelated endeavours. I see no harm being done to any of those not acting the way the presented examples did.

I didn't want to get down to the nitty gritty but we keep coming back to the order and core. We are missing the point that these factions fall into a fourth category that is nor lawful, unlawful or corporate. These are specialised factions, the lore of which could allow them to go wherever they wanted. A ZOI restriction is necessary to reign in these factions because there is good reason to venture. Contrast that with your average house military, it's a given that their primary role is to safeguard their core space. All that to say that every faction is different, attracts different sorts of players, has different activity levels, has different standings and functions and goals. Can you imagine how many lines in the sand you'd have to draw to apply this ludicrous idea to the Zoners? You can't put a horse, a dog and a mouse in a cell and expect everyone to stay put.

Each and every faction has their Zone of Influence meant to match their roleplay. This proposal isn't about drawing new lines, this proposal is about giving those lines a meaning, a way to being enforced. In Lyth's case through ID restriction, in my case through monetary loss upon death consequence.

Whether or not Zoner caps or any other individual cases should be restricted beyond that is not the subject of this thread. On the other hand, we can't really discuss individual cases if ZoIs overall are not considered that much, if at all, can we?

The whole point of running an official faction is to be able to control the quality of play within your group. You are not held accountable for the actions of indies aligned with your affiliation. It's noble of you to want to promote the quality and consistency of gameplay throughot your faction, but it's extra curricular.

The whole point of officialdom is to take care of and develop not just the faction itself, but also the entire NPC faction's lore, roleplay, ensure progression. That's something many fail to remember these days, no wonder you are one of them. There's nothing extra curricular about it, extra curricular was when the faction decided to go for officialdom, when I decided to take up the responsibility of leadership, when I decided to apply for officialdom once again when we went unofficial for two months, and when I decided to take up the accompanying tasks beside that. If my faction does not take the responsibility for the above, it deserves no officialdom and no perks coming with that. Officialdom it's not a reward of control, it's a choice of responsibility.

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[Ash]

These instances are examples, some related to my faction some are not, Lyth also brought examples unrelated to Omicrons as well, the case of Black Scorpion losing his ship, or that dude with the monkey-thing account name and the rogue HMS ship receiving a Terrorist ID eventually due to extreme deviation from their initially chosen role. But just because it were the more recent Council-related issues finally prompting a thread like this, and just because it's Lyth and myself actively speaking up, don't think these are individual and specific cases. These happen apparently everywhere and return from time to time throughout the years, and if you look at other comments in this thread you can see the two of us aren't the only ones asking for some sensibility and reasonability from anyone flying a capital ship. If you still say these are individual issues, I think you are the one not seeing the big picture here.

If we're going to go about this in a tit for tat manner i've no interest in discussing this further. You have many examples of problem cases, yet the conversation continuously shifts back to the council and the omicrons; both areas dear to you and lyth. Liberty has always been hilariously devious when it comes to where people take their caps. Yet we've heard very little about it. It's tolerable, it's always been tolerable. But now it's on your dooorstep suddenly we've got a fundamental problem with the system.

You say the proposed rule cannot be enforced on everyone just because a handful of deviations, but the proposal itself, while covers everyone, pretty much affects only those willing to deviate, and would leave unaffected all those factions and groups who stick to their chosen faction's lore and propagate that instead of their own unrelated endeavours. I see no harm being done to any of those not acting the way the presented examples did.

[Thyrzul]

If we're going to go about this in a tit for tat manner i've no interest in discussing this further. You have many examples of problem cases, yet the conversation continuously shifts back to the council and the omicrons; both areas dear to you and lyth. Liberty has always been hilariously devious when it comes to where people take their caps. Yet we've heard very little about it. It's tolerable, it's always been tolerable. But now it's on your dooorstep suddenly we've got a fundamental problem with the system.

Returning to our own examples is always the best way to explain the issue because we know our own examples the best. I don't see how this makes it a personal issue. Would others chipping in with their own examples repeatedly using them as their own most effective way to describe their issue also make this a bunch of personal issues only?

Lolberty has always been devious of plenty of things, lolcaps, gank fleets, it always is a hotbed of activity and questionable, or rather, highly varying quality of RP. In that mess it might not that be obvious. Either that, or it's just that most of those "caps flying where they shouldn't be" are the common lolzoner Nephilims in house space, but that issue is not specific to Liberty, it's specific to Zoners, and as I said, it should be treated specifically and discussed in its own thread (which kind tends to pop up semi-annually btw).

This fundamental issue isn't sudden. It suddenly prompted a thread when it got to our doorstep because Lyth dared to speak up. Even I didn't bother to make a thread on my own, but once there was one I too joined in.

See this is what i meant by missing the big picture. If you can write off the variance between all the factions in discovery as a 'handful' you're not thinking about this hard enough. As leader of the Council i'll bet you know your faction's RP inside out. I'm sure certain elements of this RP define Council gameplay in your opinion. Now consider the zoners, a faction built around space exploration and colonisation. Consider the BHG, a faction that requires it's all access pass to even function. We're not even talking about self-declared SRPs and we're meeting hurdles. You can't make this universal without stepping on many, many toes. You need to consider how this will effect each and every faction before you preach that this is the right way forward.

The relevant variance between all the factions is relatively minimal: we have house authorities, corporations and unlawfuls all with their clearly defined goals and areas of interest and with the most clearly defined ZoI, then we have the semi-oddbals and oddballs, which are to be treated on a case-by-case basis, but that is also handled by ZoI definitons, or lack of such. Your examples of Zoners and BHG don't hold their ground because those don't have any ZoI defined, and thus literally wouldn't be affected by this proposal.

The variance between the factions is handled by ZoIs defined for each faction individually. This proposal has nothing to do with individual ZoI definitions. As long as you keep bringing this point back up, I'll have a feeling you did not understand the proposal correctly.

ZoIs are already enforced indirectly by punishing unwarranted aggression: a massive disincentive to leaving your ZoI. This restricts player interaction to RP or PvP in defence. You know this, i know this, just about everyone does and it's getting reaaaaal dry talking like these restrictions are redundant. They work, and the effect is blatantly apparent, just maybe not to your exact preference.

They are apparently not enforced well enough by the self-defense restriction if we still see examples like those prompting threads like this, proposing more effective disincentives. But I guess we'll have to accept I'm exaggerating in your opinion while I'm not in my own.

The whole point of officialdom is to take care of and develop not just the faction itself, but also the entire NPC faction's lore, roleplay, ensure progression. That's something many fail to remember these days, no wonder you are one of them. There's nothing extra curricular about it, extra curricular was when the faction decided to go for officialdom, when I decided to take up the responsibility of leadership, when I decided to apply for officialdom once again when we went unofficial for two months, and when I decided to take up the accompanying tasks beside that. If my faction does not take the responsibility for the above, it deserves no officialdom and no perks coming with that. Officialdom it's not a reward of control, it's a choice of responsibility.

This is your opinion and is irrelevent here.

Since when is that just an opinion?

At this point i applaud deviant SRP cap owners for having to put up with this horrible discussion that has put their spent time and effort in jeopardy. Get over it and just RP with these people, god knows that's all they can do.

Did you know I actually also applaud people taking the time, cash and effort to prove they indeed provide explaination on why their case is special through decent amount of quality roleplay submitted to a system with quality control? They surely guaranteed to provide more value to the community in exchange for their well explained and earned deviation from their default role of choice, than those flying around randomly in capital ships without an SRP.

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[Karlotta]

The whole point of officialdom is to take care of and develop not just the faction itself, but also the entire NPC faction's lore, roleplay, ensure progression. That's something many fail to remember these days, no wonder you are one of them. There's nothing extra curricular about it, extra curricular was when the faction decided to go for officialdom, when I decided to take up the responsibility of leadership, when I decided to apply for officialdom once again when we went unofficial for two months, and when I decided to take up the accompanying tasks beside that. If my faction does not take the responsibility for the above, it deserves no officialdom and no perks coming with that. Officialdom it's not a reward of control, it's a choice of responsibility.

This is your opinion and is irrelevent here.

Since when is that just an opinion?

Since 2007

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[Cuttsy]

Nope!

[Lythrilux]

Since 2007

I see nothing there that contradicts what Thyzul has said.

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