Recently I was reviewing my posted threads, and came to conclusion I started few balance-related discussions which attracted much attention. I am interested in Discovery's balance and thought gathering links to all already existing threads and continuing discussion in one dedicated thread would be beneficial; easier to find, to talk about changes.
I will systematically complete list of links to previously posted disputes, and mark actually discussed posts in this thread. I have two modest requests to all discussants - although that thread is meant to be centered on Disco balance, it's natural due to problem complexity and overall size of the issue which gameplay conditions are, sometimes we will deviate from main balance topics, and talk about certain RP problems, server rules and their effect on gameplay, factions etc. Normally such threads would fit more into Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions or Discovery RP 24/7 Rules, but as I pointed out above, it's not that simple. One thing connects to another, so please don't go "wrong subforum lol". Such comments wouldn't add anything to the discussion.
Another thing I ask from you, is to treat others as you would like to be treated. Don't insult others disagreeing with your point of view, but calmly point out why do you think your adversary is wrong, supporting your position with examples, all of that done in a constructive, respectful for others manner.
I'm not trying to hide Saronsen's balance thread was inspiration to make my own, I hope constructive debates which will take part here will provide valuable source of information and feedback for our developers.
(04-08-2014, 12:36 PM)aerelm Wrote: Wish more people bothered doing threads like this. Appreciate the effort.
Disclaimer: yes, I own a barge. No, I never used it for jumptrading, and to be honest I only keep it alive, with occasional use as a storage.
Barges. Big, barely mobile ships, hated and loved by many, mainly due to jumptrading. Latest rumors say they may be removed in the future from the mod. (although, it's flood, so one can never know for sure was that really serious or not)
The main accusation against barges is that they are used for jumping with goods, bypassing all bottlenecks on the map, avoiding any interaction at all, and thus damaging interaction between players on a server-wide scale. That's true; of course, but should an answer to that be removal of the barge? In my opinion, no. Here's why:
Barges weren't so problematic before transport jumping became thing. They should be made unable to jump (just like all transports, imo), instead of getting removed. Barges serve also as stockpiles.
"Hola hola, Pavel, wait a moment. We've got POBs for that now. Barges are no longer needed." - you will say.
Well, I'm not fan of bases. They're harmful to the mod, they turn joy from the game into mindless grind, lead to frustration, rulebreaking to save your base/destroy hostile outpost. Sure, there are some exceptions from that, but they only confirm general rule about bases. I've seen factions killed by base grind, constant metagaming in order to deliver supplies/catch suppliers, reengaging to protect or destroy base, etc etc. I think [RHA] is the best example how base grind can first make faction stagnant, and then kill it. In the end only one person was supplying it, and I'm sure he hated that ungrateful task. Hessians, from active faction raiding New Berlin/Gamma on daily basis, in big force, first turned into power jumptraders and base grinders, and into just base grinders in the end. Alive and very much active official faction with big indie playerbase cooperating with them was killed by base grind.
Now, if instead they'd just use Barge as stockpile, base grinding wouldn't kill their activity.
Moreover, there's been at least few occasions when bases were used to exploit glitches and clone CAU8 armors, etc. I think everyone remembers some threads, including the most recent ones. Now tell me, how one could clone armors on Barge, if he used it instead of POB?
Barges have big cargo hold size, but don't...require...3am....supply runs....they don't...become main goal....for entire factions....to just keep them supplied and protected....unlike....POBs....
People just press "respawn" and their 40k of cargo space is back, without drama, balance problems about base placement, real oorp hate between players over destroyed base and so on. Barge's ability to jump is problem here, not Barge itself, for which I see many advantages over so deified by some POBs.
Do you remember latest drama about Garret's Thor ? It resulted in Garret's temporary ragequit and much bad blood between players supporting and opposing whole concept. Idea to give inactive factions incentive in the form of something unique, a ship, is good. Barge is such a ship, why not lease/give it to official factions as an incentive? It's unique, it's helpful, it doesn't require grind.
All in all:
- don't remove barges, ability to jump is problematic here, not the barge itself. Make barges unable to jump.
- barges never required faction-killing grind, they can be just respawned.
- POBs are used to cheat, exploit bugs, block entire systems what kills activity there (Dublin and Goldern Coin for example), POBs placed inside mining fields totally break game balance (hessians powermining like mad for Diamant, which was placed almost right in the field, it was impossible at all to mine diamonds as Daumann). Barges serve as non-harmful to gameplay storages (except jumptrading, but again, it's not barges themselves, but their ability to jump)
- barges may be used as unique ships for factions, an incentive which was sought with that Mk2 Thor
(09-02-2014, 11:55 AM)Pavel Wrote: Do you remember latest drama about Garret's Thor ? It resulted in Garret's temporary ragequit and much bad blood between players supporting and opposing whole concept. Idea to give inactive factions incentive in the form of something unique, a ship, is good. Barge is such a ship, why not lease/give it to official factions as an incentive? It's unique, it's helpful, it doesn't require grind.
Perhaps make it so Barge's can only be owned by official factions, and that they have to remain tagged at all times. Unless I'm greatly mistaken, Barges are supposed to be a SRP ship, or that was their original concept. I'm not sure if that was dropped, or if it has just been completely ignored for a long time now.
Might be like, removing all the barges first, providing the official factions with one barge (instead of the CAU8 that comes with officialdom maybe?). And thereafter, the only way to get a barge maybe either through gaining officialdom with a faction or through SRP.
Regarding Garretts.Thor, I wouldn't say that the idea was wrong or any ill intended. It was intended for thesake of rise in factions activity, but turned out differently. Just that the way of usage and the shift in balance (OPness) made it a sour grape in the eye of many. Which cap pilot would want to be in the receiving end of a blue message where there was little to no chance of a fair pew?
EDIT: Oh, and make it mandatory for the factions that receive the barge to log it for a specific amount of time. Since, usage of a barge requires teamwork, meaning more activity from the faction side.
About barge:
People say that jumper kill activity (even if i dont like to jump myself).
I disagree, when people jump, they are at least 3, most of time 4-5. This people can RP well (even if some jumper group dont) and it would be bad to punish everyone when only a minority use this to powertrade.
About PoB:
I think that PoB itself isnt really the problem, the problem is that their arent enough variety between PoB. As you can see in my thread, we propose different way for PoB. Like this, someone who build a PoB with a lot of WP to block a minefield wont be able to Stock a lot of Ore in it and it will mostly cost him money.
If he decide to build a "Trade" PoB, he will be able to stock a lot of Ore but wont have a lot of WP (only 1-2) and wont be able to block the field. That's just a proposal, i let you give your mind
(09-02-2014, 01:25 PM)larzac Wrote: About barge:
People say that jumper kill activity (even if i dont like to jump myself).
I disagree, when people jump, they are at least 3, most of time 4-5. This people can RP well (even if some jumper group dont) and it would be bad to punish everyone when only a minority use this to powertrade.
He's not saying it doesn't create activity, he's saying it removes interaction with people outside of the group doing the jumptrading, which is a bad thing.
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