Discovery Gaming Community

Anaximander Wrote:Anyways, things have indeed changed a lot. Some stars have fallen from the sky, there's a lot more openness (this thread is a pretty good example), and what needed to be said has already been said. Several times over.

No doubt about a lot(!) of dick moves in the past that in my view have been very negative for the community and led to long-standing grudges, and some of the links testify to this; but on the positive side it is not really like that anymore, at least to my experience. When you are treated badly, you now get to voice it without getting trolled (too much, at least) and without getting invis'ed.

Maybe I am being too optimistic, but I think you'd even be invited back into the fold, Karlotta, if you really wanted to and could let go of some of the grudges and asked nicely. Don't forget that a lot of people sympathize with your points of view.

Catharsis is complete. Now let's go play.

I'm playing all the time, and have been playing all the time since then. What you see there is Joe (and others) arguing that a mob of players should use violence to get single players to submit to them or leave. Although Joe now tries to tell everyone that what he said there was simply his innocent noob-time naivity which has absolutely nothing to do with how he acted later on, the oposite is actually true.

The mindset that there are first class players who should get the first class stuff because they were accepted by the mob and joined it, and second class players who did neither should be treated as second class and bullied away, was the principle of certain people's actions (Joe among them) for a long time after that. Remember when we were talking about the experiences of indy navy, expecially caps, some weeks ago? Well that was also part of it.

It was this mindset that made them shoot indy outcasts for not submitting to their (server-rulewise non existent) authority back then, that was their mindset when they made their phantom/nomad/reaver supergear/superpermission factions, that was their mindset when they ignored rule violations reported by people who werent "first class", that was their mindset when they banned and censored people who insisted on rational argumentation instead of submitting to them, that's their mindset every time they say "If you dont like what I do leave, because I'm the boss" instead of trying to reason with people. And that's still the mindset that [LN] had when they were shooting navy indies who shot the superspecialnomads who had to hang out in liberty a few weeks ago. And its also that mindset that keeps the vets entrenched in their official faction status and superl33t ivory towers stupid and boring RP, where RP is only good and fights are only fair if people do exaclty what the vets want.

As long as admins make it more important who you have on skype than whether you follow rules and canon RP, I'm not going to "ask nicely", just so I can be a part of that again.

DustyLens Wrote:I mean, 2008. It's 2013 man. Time has healed those wounds.

I was talking about things that mattered to me at the time I decided to get myself banned rather than silently swallowing all the crap that Joe&Friends were force-feeding to people. That was in 2009. And its not like you guys, or Joe in particular, really changed. The [LN] defending navy indies against nomads, and the way Joe behaved towards RNC and Indians shows that he's still the same kind of control freak he was back then.

JihadJoe Wrote:You, however decided to lift opinions from a thread which I posted in NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO, with opinions which I held at the time... You may have noticed that over time, Karlotta, my opinions changed and I was capable of being flexible.

I'd be interested to know when exactly you began to distance yourself from that behavior. I also seem to have missed your apology to Akumabito, who was banned for repeatedly objecting to this sort of stuff, and who people still like to bring up as a threat showing what can happen to you if you mess with the wrong people. Maybe a... more public... apology and recanting would also have helped to reduce the still continued and wide-spread policy of bullying people out of their ships in the house that FlexibleJoe was the most influencial faction leader of until recently. The later kind of gives me the impression that FlexibleJoe didnt change until the minute he noticed that the quotes didnt really make him look as nice as he tries to portrait himself.

JihadJoe Wrote:You, on the other hand have been spouting the same half baked misinformed nonsense, with the same slanderous accusations such as...

Quote:-making sure certain l33t people get advantages over others by giving them superior gear and making it illegal for others to use that gear.
-making sure the same people, who are already much more trained in PvP anyway, and how have the superior gear, are not attacked in superior numbers by people who have no other way of defending themselves against them

Without even half a shred of evidence to support this

So before I bother to gather the "evidence" for you, are you going to deny that:

1: Keepers had ships that were widely superior to their same-class counterparts. Namely the 4.85 voidrunner, the nom cruiser, the marduk. Phantoms had a top notch class 9 hullbuster gun, and two of the most coveted ships (mainly for their looks, but also the only 8-gun VHF and 6-gun LF, but the members were combining their favorite gear and ships across all factions anyway, for example the 4.85 Osiris and Sabre). Both Phantoms and Keepers could engage any ship they pleased, in an unlimed ZOI. Reavers were flying ship/gear combinations like Sabres with Tizis and Black Dragons with Black Widows, shooting corsairs with their own guns, and getting the admins to force CR to give permission for a CR gun although they only gave permission to use a totally different IMG gun before. The IND had (dont know if they even still exist) some pretty neat privileges like dealing with both lawful and unlawful factions, while dodging RP consequences for example for their cardi smuggling, but when a certain faction did remove their permission to enter their guard system because of it, liberty sued that faction for billions of credits?

2. That the things I listed constitute advantages that people in open free-for-all factions could only dream of?

3. That you were in all of these factions, together with numerous other admins and their friends?

4: That you repeatedly discouraged people from using higher numbers or higher ship class to overcome an enemy, which is pretty much the only way you can beat a l33t pvper with leet gear? And that keepers, phantoms, and reavers do the same (both complain about ganking and ganking themselves, that is)?

5: That when you fight in equal ship class and numbers, the guys with the better ships of same class and better skill always win?

JihadJoe Wrote:, while ignoring the instances which do not suit your opinion.

K'... I have been trying to talk about other things for literally years. But it is YOU who keeps on dragging up the same ***** and running over it again and again, at no point actually saying anything which is even half way true.

You fail to bring up actual events which support your opinion of me... And when you do, your proof is me stating an inexperienced and naive opinion just a month shy of five years ago.

Karlotta, that thread you quoted is from 2008... TWO THOUSAND AND EIGHT. Discovery was a very different place then, and I was very very new to the scene. I was not leading a faction, nor was I in any position of authority.

Well I'll believe you when you say you wanted to talk about other things than that, but I never really saw any evidence that you were willing to understand other people's perspective and change.

Again, you say to me "At no point actually saying anything which is even halfway true". And that I ignore instances which do not suit my opinion.

There's exactly the problem. All of what I say is true, based on real events, and I've given them countless times. But you still keep yourself in denial like a 5 year old. Like a kid who thinks he doesnt steal cookies because he didnt steal the one that was in plain site while mommy was watching, although he did steal few others.

For example just because something was a long time ago, you decide it doesnt matter anymore, therefore what I said (also a long time ago) wasnt even half way true and I have no shred of evidence, even if what I said was 100% accurate, and I was able to prove it by the words that came out of your own mouth.

And when I say that admins were handing out unfair advantages to themselves and their friends by allowing certain invite only factions which are filled with admins and their friends to have superior gear and rights, you decide that none of what I say is even halfway true, because afterall you've never given your admin guns to your own RP chars, or to those of your friends.

JihadJoe Wrote:I remember, Dusty... About five years back, you were on your XA, running away from the DW. You said probably the most RP thing in the universe when being chased by a significant number of missile-boats (man, the BH GS with a full set of kusari missiles was lethal)... The thing you said would have sounded rather like "Oh duck".
You had intended to say it in group, to a few people, and accidentally spewed it out in system chat... You got reported for it, and bought yourself a week ban.

Man, we were always protecting our own back then... Always.

And when I say admins knowingly ignored my rule violation reports and lied about there not being enough evidence, and banned and censored me for showing that in fact there was, you decide that its not even halfway true, because one time you sanctioned DustyLens when somebody reported him. Even if you know perfectly well that I got censored and banned for posting rule violation reports that got ignore publicily, and you yourself later said that actually they did contain enough evidience and showed offenses.

I guess that must be signs of your... flexibility?

JihadJoe Wrote:There is a reason I posted a jpeg of a windmill.

I'm sure you're well-read and intelligent enough to work out the reference.

Then I guess the admin who removed the avatar from my alt back in 2010 was fearful of people thinking that I was as supersmart and well read as you.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/member.php...&uid=18383


And I havent read a book since 2004, and get out-smarted by my dog on a daily basis. Never read Don Quixote either, but remember seeing it as a cartoon when I was 5. You're very impressve though, and I'm glad you pointed to your post again.

Or maybe the admin just didnt want people to think that I'm maybe more capable of more self-critisism, and self-irony than some of the superintellectual-superRPing-superfair pillars of the comunity.

Also look my neat sig which they removed from Hero4Hire.



The Ba**ards.

(p.s: Black Scorpion offered me 30 mil to side with him in that LPI incident)

is that dude in your sig karlotta?

(04-24-2013, 03:50 PM)Pearl.Gates Wrote: [ -> ]So before I bother to gather the "evidence" for you, are you going to deny that:

1: Keepers had ships that were widely superior to their same-class counterparts. Namely the 4.85 voidrunner, the nom cruiser, the marduk. Phantoms had a top notch class 9 hullbuster gun, and two of the most coveted ships (mainly for their looks, but also the only 8-gun VHF and 6-gun LF, but the members were combining their favorite gear and ships across all factions anyway, for example the 4.85 Osiris and Sabre). Both Phantoms and Keepers could engage any ship they pleased, in an unlimed ZOI. Reavers were flying ship/gear combinations like Sabres with Tizis and Black Dragons with Black Widows, shooting corsairs with their own guns, and getting the admins to force CR to give permission for a CR gun although they only gave permission to use a totally different IMG gun before. The IND had (dont know if they even still exist) some pretty neat privileges like dealing with both lawful and unlawful factions, while dodging RP consequences for example for their cardi smuggling, but when a certain faction did remove their permission to enter their guard system because of it, liberty sued that faction for billions of credits?

2. That the things I listed constitute advantages that people in open free-for-all factions could only dream of?

3. That you were in all of these factions, together with numerous other admins and their friends?

4: That you repeatedly discouraged people from using higher numbers or higher ship class to overcome an enemy, which is pretty much the only way you can beat a l33t pvper with leet gear? And that keepers, phantoms, and reavers do the same (both complain about ganking and ganking themselves, that is)?

5: That when you fight in equal ship class and numbers, the guys with the better ships of same class and better skill always win?

I will address points one, two and three at the same time, since they are related.

I was not and never have been responsible for game balance at that time or any other. I was added to the balance testing team for a brief period, and found that I was unable to assist in the environment created for the purpose.

The Shadow (eight gun VHF you refered to) is near impossible to fly anything other than badly. It is best described as drunk.

The Nomad Assassin has always been fat, slow, and had large spikey bits seemingly designed to catch nuclear mines. It remains as such. A poor ship.

The Nomad Bomber has never been anything other than a pretty bog standard light bomber. Even in the days of light bombers being essentially four gun fighters with a supernova, it was still inferior to a great many other ships of the same class.

The Marduk has always been inferior to the rheinland battleship, while filling much the same role.

The ships which have been OP within the nomads are the light fighter (which has taken repeated and desevred nerfs over successive mod versions) and the Nomad cruiser (which for a long time was bugged and was not widely flown as a result).

None of these ships have ever been "unbeatable". Infact the vast majority of pilots would prefer many ships which have traditionally been open use. I know I did. I also know that with the Keepers in particular the lack of shieldbusters and missiles during large parts of the history you are talking about, actively hurt their ability in combat, largely negating any of the balance issues you like to vomit up as examples of bias or some other shit...

Balance, which, I repeat, was not and never has been my responsibility.

I believe that factions such as the Nomads have a requirement to have rather good gear due to their nature as antagonists. People have to be afraid of something for the purpose of immersion.

This however is not the argument at hand.

Reavers did indeed fly combos such as sabres with tizzies. However I can think of numerous other freelancers and mercs outside the Reavers who did much the same. Many of them were or are owned by people who you do not consider to be "the enemy" and were obtained in the same way... By working for it.
The only difference is the fact there was a Reaver. tag on the Reavers' ships. Something you object to on principle because the people who are and were in the Reavers are the people of whom you decided to make an enemy, personally.

The Reavers always were and always have been nothing more than mercenaries. They have behaved as mercenaries and have been treated, by the rules, as mercenaries. Nothing more and nothing less. You claim there is some uneven nature in the way the Reavers have been handled by the administration and game in general, and I will inform you there has not been.

The reavers, to my knowlege, did not have anything to do with CR guns. I believe there was some issue with the Nyx however, which the CR tried to remove from ALL of the people to whom they had granted it when it was made "CR only" rather than a "CR/IMG" ship.

They made a habit of handing out a ship which was shared between the two factions, and then were suddenly extremely jealous in their behaviour over the ship as soon as it was purely under their control. Hmmmmm...

There was a change in the rules regarding faction tech following this (and an issue with the [101st], who attempted to remove permissions from people, turning them into sanction bait, after the tech had been granted)... The change made is impossible to revoke tech permissions, unless the terms of possible removal had been clearly stated beforehand.




The only time the house government in-rp decided to overlook something regardng the IND, is when someone decided to drag up footage of cardi smuggling from years previous (taken outside any house juresdiction, in-rp), which had already been acted upon by numerous house governments when it first appeared, and attempt to present it as fresh evidence, after that player had already made it quite clear they personally disliked the IND.


I wonder which player THAT could possibly have been. *ponders*

The IND were infact fined by Liberty and other houses for breaches of in-rp law on numerous occasions, but in each circumstance fought an in-rp legal battle to defend their actions. Infact the Republic of Liberty fined the IND something along the lines of 20,000 units of ore and some 500million credits as a result of the IND being caught smuggling.
The IND dodged RP consequences using RP. Not using the rules. When they were faced with RP consequences, they roleplayed back.

The only advantage the IND have and ever had over the old smuggler ID, and the current freelancer ID, is the size of vessel they may use. Even then, the smuggler ID was able to use a great many ships which were extremely close to the 5k mark.

The advantage was minor at best, and infact one which all Zoners also had for an extremely long time.



I have been a member of the following factions (in order of me joining them, or as close as I can remember)...

{SU}, [RoS], (NovaPG), XA-, [IND], MM~, [LN], Keepers., [101st], [HF], [OPG], Reavers, AU-, Phantoms (for a while), [KNF] (under the IG), Aoi Iseijin, [TBH], GRN|... I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.

I have also been a member of almost countless unofficial projects, some of them rather long lasting and others were somewhat short lived.

Within the factions you have mentioned, the vast majority of the membership are not thsoe who you would consider to be on the list of "admins or admin friends".

Many people became friends within those factions. For example, the Keepers have had three members who at the time of their membership were admins. BulldogNK was an admin and a member of the faction in the early days, placed there by Igiss to oversee the faction when it was forming, as a result of many players concerns that the faction would be dangerous and disruptive. The presence of BulldogNK was something that at the time was reassuring to many members of the community. He had already been removed by the time the next two people joined.

I was a member of the Keepers. I was not an admin at the time I joined the Keepers, but became an admin some time later.

Kuraine was an admin and also a member of the Keepers, although seemingly part-time with regards to both.

The faction's leadership nor the vast and overwhealming majority of its membership are people who you would have regarded as "admin friends" or whatever the hell you want to call it.

Recruitment was something done by watching in game behaviour and forum roleplay, determining whether the person was up to the standard required by the keepers to be invited. It was not exclusive and more often than not the people who were approached were complete unknowns. For example, hardly anyone knew who Hyung Soong was when he entered the faction.

This method was later changed to the trail ID approach, after people felt that it was catering for an in-group. This turned out to attract a great many people who wished to join for the epeen effect, and as a result the quality of roleplay produced and attitude of the Keepers took something of a dive. Such is life.

the Phantoms was again largely staffed by people who you probably have not even heard of. Many admins have been members over the years, but often not influential nor active members. Notable exceptions are Kane (who founded the faction and decided it would be invite only), Virus and Fellow Hoodlum. They were all three extremely influential members, and were all made admins some years after joining the Phantom faction.

The IND again is largely staffed by people who are not admins, or on your totally arbitrary list of admin friends. No more admins served in that faction than have been through the ranks of a great many others. Infact, I believe the KNF has infact housed more admins over time than the IND. Bt you are quite welcome to completely ignore that, if it doesn't suit your agenda.

Point 5.

When you fight in equal numbers and the same class of ship, the guys who are more skilled, or who communicate better with one another will always win. The difference in balance between ships has always been rather slim.

Back in 4.84, vengeance lasers were terrible, and yet if two pilots were to face one another... One with vengeance lasers and the other with krakens, the one that wins will be the one who is the better pilot.

Only when two pilots are of equal or close to equal skill will the balance between ships come into it.

I would suggest that luck plays a bigger part in many respects. I know that I have accidentally killed people with a mine intended for a completely different target in group fights.

I also know that occasionally unplanned and unexpected things do happen. balance and skill do not play a part in a lucky shot to the back of a dodging eagle over 2k away from a liberty cruiser forward cannon... And yet such things happen, even if highly improbable.



Go fish out the evidence then.

did you just said pvp?

hero4hire....heh.

Not sure what I just watched but my fucking mid is blown. gg dusty